Do I really need to medicate? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    [QUOTE=Tennessee's Bees LLC;1676241]
    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Here is a wall design I am testing - I mean it to be full of ants, scorpions, fungus, mold, whatever.
    Moth? Fine, whatever.

    I would be interested to see how that would work if at all here. We have such a long summer and significant amounts of propolis I doubt it would stay open for a season. I also am not sure how these mite eating bugs are going to be able to do anything when my hives are literally killing lizards, mice, wasp, and carpenter bees left and right.
    This wall does not have to stay open.
    Whatever they decide to do is fine - that is the exact experiment.
    In fact, IF they propolise it shut - it is fine and good just as well - the more propolise the better.
    I predict it will be like a sponge of sorts, passable by little bugs in some places at least.
    Pretty much expect ants making a home in these walls, almost given and totally fine with me.
    Ants are actually good to have around.
    Anyways, who knows - waiting next season now.

    Just knowing a real, rotten bee tree (I screened it shut by the owner request), there is nothing in that tree even approaching a smooth wall made from planed lumber or plastic.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #62

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tennessee's Bees LLC View Post

    I would be interested to see how that would work if at all here. We have such a long summer and significant amounts of propolis I doubt it would stay open for a season. I also am not sure how these mite eating bugs are going to be able to do anything when my hives are literally killing lizards, mice, wasp, and carpenter bees left and right.

    I might be too dumb to distinguish between friend and foe ( msl, I think it is a language problem, Im sorry) but do you really think the bees are so dumb they cannot distinguish between them?
    No.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Originally Posted by little_john
    Symbiosis is a term usually employed to describe a relationship which is mutually beneficial to both organisms. How does the presence or behaviour of the Varroa mite ever benefit the Honey-Bee ?
    LJ
    According to Google:

    What are the types of symbiotic relationships?
    There are 3 types of symbiosis:

    Parasitism: parasite benefits, host is hurt. ...
    Commensalism: one species benefits, the other is neither hurt nor helped. ...
    Mutualism: both species benefit. ...
    Keystone predators may control key competitors at lower levels in the food chain, thus allowing other species to thrive.

    Symbiosis - Marietta College
    https://w3.marietta.edu/~biol/biomes/symbiosis.htm
    One of the most common misunderstandings in life is that "words have meanings" - as if a word somehow 'owns' it's meaning. It's far more accurate to say that "meanings have (or are assigned) words" - although I'd be the first to agree that this does seem a somewhat awkward idea at first ...

    This situation has come about because we are born into a world where languages have already been firmly established, and it's up to each one of us to learn the usual relationship held between a word and it's accepted meaning or meanings (plural) - because some words have indeed developed multiple meanings. This is the result of there being far more meanings to be communicated than there are words in the English lexicon - hence the multiple meanings listed within dictionaries for many individual words.

    So which of these is best described as the word's 'true' meaning ? Well, one useful way of discovering this is to examine the etymology of the word in order to discover the original meaning which was responsible for that word's genesis.

    So - for 'symbiosis', we find:
    symbiosis (n.)

    1876, as a biological term, "union for life of two different organisms based on mutually benefit," from Greek symbiosis "a living together," from symbioun "live together," from symbios "(one) living together (with another), partner, companion, husband or wife," from assimilated form of syn- "together" (see syn-) + bios "life" (from PIE root *gwei- "to live"). Given a wider (non-biological) sense by 1921. An earlier sense of "communal or social life" is found in 1620s. A back-formed verb symbiose is recorded from 1960.
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/symbiosis
    There are of course many other etymological sources one can consult, but the same word keeps appearing time and time again: "live" or "living". So - even if parasitism should be included in one's understanding of symbiosis, it must be a form of parasitism which allows both organisms to live - even if one disregards the 'mutual benefit' aspect of that relationship.

    But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death - not life - and so the relationship between the Varroa mite and the European Honey-Bee is NOT about 'living together' at all - it is a relationship of aggressor and victim, and thus cannot reasonably be described as one of symbiosis.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #64

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death - not life - and so the relationship between the Varroa mite and the European Honey-Bee is NOT about 'living together' at all - it is a relationship of aggressor and victim, and thus cannot reasonably be described as one of symbiosis.
    LJ
    Sorry LJ.

    Ask a tf beekeeper like Kirk Webster, Sam Comfort, Michael Bush, David Heaf!

    Tell me did we ever let the bees and their parasites try this out?

    And you, you having the priviledge to have those tf beekeepers near you, visit and ask them!

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    I might be too dumb to distinguish between friend and foe ( msl, I think it is a language problem, Im sorry) but do you really think the bees are so dumb they cannot distinguish between them?
    No.
    I could not disagree more. If it is foreign in a hive it is getting the axe if it can be caught. Watching any colony of honeybees that is fairly basic. While all these theories sound nice they are not grounded on facts. I am all for experimentation but lets not get ahead of ourselves like we have with screened bottom boards, fungus that will kill mites and save the bees, essential oils, lithium salts, breeding only from the survivors to name a few.

    One thing I do know for a fact is that the further I have gotten away from TF the healthier and more prosperous my bees have become. It only makes sense that bees would have ailments just like livestock, humans, and everything else. Sure we should select for the best,but again, bees are a biological robot they are not going to permit something into the hive if they can help it.
    Feeding early patties. https://youtu.be/bUDd3vk7bgY

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    SiWolKe, do you see everyone as a friend or a foe? Most of us are just people, talking.

    Over here in NZ, when I do alcohol washes i quite often find pseudoscorpions, which is interesting because the wash is a bee sample so the pseudoscorpions must have been on the actual bees. So I brought this up on our local chat site, and a bunch of people got interested and did the pseudoscorpion thing big time. Over here pseudoscorpions can be bought in 1 Litre packs.


    So guys got busy preparing their hives, along the lines of what has been talked about here. Also, some people thought that a hive that has been treated might not be a good environment for the pseudoscorpions, so brand new hives were made, treatment free, and stocked with bees, especially for the pseudoscorpions.

    In the end, after quite a period of time, the psuedoscorpions just didn't work.


    I am not sure what the pseudoscorpions in my hives eat. I have seen a photo taken in a petri dish, of a pseudoscorpion attacking and eating a varroa mite. Wether this happens in a hive I do not know. But if it does, the issue would be that it would be like any other predator prey relationship. The predator needs a stable prey population. In other words, to survive, the pseudoscorpions would come to some kind of balance between their population, and the mite population. Or, if they wipe out the mites, they would then exterminate themselves.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    One day, in the not too distant future, I hope I will no longer need to do so.
    If others have achieved this, then I do not see why I cant.
    Bottom line is...If you never try, you never will.

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Any proposition requires a cost / benefit analysis. We all do it one way or another, usually without really putting a name to the action. We all have our own weighting factors.

    I certainly am running out of time to try everything. We all are! One of my fathers sayings was "Learn from others mistakes; we dont live long enough to make them all ourselves!"

    When a person appears to have, as a main driving force, the need to feel special, rather than a discernible objectivity, then I dont assign a lot of weight to their mental meanderings. Demonstrating a strong missionary zeal but an obvious confirmation bias is not conducive to good science. I would hate to see such people be given the keys to genetic engineering!

    In the mean time Varroa mites need to be managed the same as many other livestock issues such as worms, pink eye, selenium deficiency, brainworm etc. We cannot afford to genetically engineer away every such individual inconvenience to man!
    Frank

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    In the US there used to be human blow flies. They would lay their larvae on humans and they would burrow in and feed on the flesh. A program was developed to produce billions of sterile male flies. These were released and overwhelmed the fertile males leading to a crash in their population. Human
    blow flies have now been eliminated in the US.

    Something along those lines might be useful with mites. Since varroa mites life cycle is much different it would need to be different but perhaps breeding a mass of "milder" mites and releasing them into hives to overwhelm the bad mite genetics.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonsl View Post
    In the US there used to be human blow flies. They would lay their larvae on humans and they would burrow in and feed on the flesh.
    That's interesting didn't know about that. Were they bot flies by any chance?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23eimVLAQ2c
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Different genus and species but same idea. There are a number of species around the world that have a similar life history and have different host species. I think the human blow fly is still present in Central America (or maybe a related species). This is also called the New World primary screwworm.
    Last edited by jonsl; 10-27-2018 at 07:10 PM.

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Very interesting Jonsl!

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    If others have achieved this, then I do not see why I cant.
    The bees, and the mites, do not care what your beliefs and expectations are, they do what they do regardless.


    There are reasons why you can't. The situation your bees are in is different to the others you refer to who are treatment free. They run multiple hives plus are surrounded by similar bees, and are in locations that give a suitable environment.

    With your one hive, surrounded by hives that have to be medicated, you are not able to breed a bee that will survive treatment free. You will medicate again, and regularly, or, you will lose your bees.

    I would also suggest having a look at some other hives, just so you can see what a healthy hive is. Not being too harsh, but recently when your hive was close to death, you thought it was doing fine. Some experience with others will be helpful so you know what you are looking at.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #73
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jonsl View Post
    In the US there used to be human blow flies. They would lay their larvae on humans and they would burrow in and feed on the flesh. A program was developed to produce billions of sterile male flies. These were released and overwhelmed the fertile males leading to a crash in their population. Human
    blow flies have now been eliminated in the US.


    Something along those lines might be useful with mites. Since varroa mites life cycle is much different it would need to be different but perhaps breeding a mass of "milder" mites and releasing them into hives to overwhelm the bad mite genetics.
    There are no "human blowflies." You are referring to primary screw worm, which infects cattle mainly, and can get to humans, but rarely. There is the human bot fly.
    The screw worm did have a sterile male release program to knock the numbers down but they have not been eliminated. Total elimination is nearly impossible unless on a worldwide scale.

    Even bot flies do not lay their eggs directly on humans. The female catches a mosquito, lays her eggs on the underside of the female mosquito abdomen, then when the mosquito feeds on a person, the bot fly egg hatches and burrows into the person. Evolution is a strange and amazing thing.

    There is maggot therapy first developed during WW2 that used bot fly larvae to eat the diseased and dead flesh around wounds, but the larvae only eat dead flesh and not living flesh. They also produce a natural antibiotic that woul help the wound not get infected.

    Yes, i am a Dipterist, literally.

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I don't think they used bot fly maggots to clean wounds, as bot fly maggots tunnel into living flesh. It was normal fly larvae that were used.

    Years ago I actually knew someone who did this, I lived in a remote (by NZ standards) part of our country where there used to be old hermits and various eccentric type people living often in tumble down shacks. Some of these guys rarely ventured into a town, or far from where they lived. One of these guys had an accident which got badly infected. He got some maggots and applied them, and they did indeed clean up the wound. He described to me how he watched new skin start to grow in from the egde and the maggots allowed it and didn't eat it. I do not know what the species was, I don't think he probably did either.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    The use of maggots to clean wounds goes back to at least the Napoleonic Wars, maybe well before then. Dunno what species of fly they used - whatever was locally available at the time they were needed, I guess.
    They also used honey to promote the healing of the cleaned wounds - a technique which goes way back to the Mayans and ancient Egyptians. Napoleonic field surgeons also treated burns using honey mixed with lead acetate (which was maybe not such a good idea ...), but then that was a time when mercury-based ointments were being used to treat syphilis. Not exactly "the good old days" ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  17. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I don't think they used bot fly maggots to clean wounds, as bot fly maggots tunnel into living flesh. It was normal fly larvae that were used.

    Years ago I actually knew someone who did this, I lived in a remote (by NZ standards) part of our country where there used to be old hermits and various eccentric type people living often in tumble down shacks. Some of these guys rarely ventured into a town, or far from where they lived. One of these guys had an accident which got badly infected. He got some maggots and applied them, and they did indeed clean up the wound. He described to me how he watched new skin start to grow in from the egde and the maggots allowed it and didn't eat it. I do not know what the species was, I don't think he probably did either.
    Sorry for the confusion. You are correct that it is not bot flies for maggot therapy.

    I was referring again to blow fly larvae being used in the therapy. Not screw worms though.

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #78

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Very interesting Jonsl!

    The bees, and the mites, do not care what your beliefs and expectations are, they do what they do regardless.


    There are reasons why you can't. The situation your bees are in is different to the others you refer to who are treatment free. They run multiple hives plus are surrounded by similar bees, and are in locations that give a suitable environment.

    With your one hive, surrounded by hives that have to be medicated, you are not able to breed a bee that will survive treatment free. You will medicate again, and regularly, or, you will lose your bees.

    I would also suggest having a look at some other hives, just so you can see what a healthy hive is. Not being too harsh, but recently when your hive was close to death, you thought it was doing fine. Some experience with others will be helpful so you know what you are looking at.
    Why do you say that? Because you tried once and failed? Let him make his own experience. If he fails like you did he still will learn many things about bees which will make him a great beekeeper. Everybody is with him if he decides to treat again.
    Perhaps in a few years he will sell queens to you.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Why do I say it? Cos it's the facts. This is not Germany, or Nebraska, it's New Zealand. And, I'm just the messenger.

    Maybe one day SHE will sell queens to me, maybe never. If she does, I would be happy with that, and for her.

    I wish her the best, but she is only just starting to learn the reality. Part way there, but more to go.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  21. #80

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Why do I say it? Cos it's the facts. This is not Germany, or Nebraska, it's New Zealand. And, I'm just the messenger.

    Maybe one day SHE will sell queens to me, maybe never. If she does, I would be happy with that, and for her.

    I wish her the best, but she is only just starting to learn the reality. Part way there, but more to go.
    She? Hi, welcome in a world of machos
    Germany? Its not personal, OT, but is there a situation worse than Germany?

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