Do I really need to medicate? - Page 14
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  1. #261
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Chem treatments?.......
    I dont use them as a matter of course.
    But you do use them quite a bit, even last monday

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    I did an OAV on monday
    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    what you have just said is completely different to what you said to me in PM's.
    No it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Maybe I should just copy and paste our PM's for transparency.
    Please do there will be no discrepency.

    Then after that get off my back and stop following me around. Cos Mischief, nobody else cares about your little issue with me. I don't even know myself why you have an issue with me. Let's get past it and back to the thread topic.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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  3. #262
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
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    South Waikato New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Thats interesting!
    I have had ceiling rated insulation over the inner covers ever since I felt the heat coming off the inner cover in the first winter. Its been there ever since.

    One thing that has concerned me is that the empty section of my long hive is Wet during winter. I dont know if this is actually a problem, but it doesnt feel right.
    I was thinking of insulating or closing the hive space down so there wasnt so much empty space.... A closed space holding in the heat will create a more humid atmosphere.

    how sad to end a post like that....ummm Michael Bush and Dennis Murell spring to mind. I'm sure there are others who just cant be bothered with forums.

    So getting back to insulation.
    What I noticed with my hive is that they cluster on the sun side of the hive even with the insulation over top. I have a;ways wondered if it would be better to insulate the cold sides but leave the sun side uninsulated.
    What do you think?

  4. #263
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    Jan 2017
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    South Waikato New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    But you do use them quite a bit, even last monday



    No it isn't.

    Please do there will be no discrepency.

    Then after that get off my back and stop following me around. Cos Mischief, nobody else cares about your little issue with me. I don't even know myself why you have an issue with me. Let's get past it and back to the thread topic.
    OT.
    I'm done with Stoopid, anyone who wants to bother with this can simply click on our names at the top and go through all our posts to see who has been say what.
    NOW!!! can we get back to the topic at hand.

  5. #264
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    anyone who wants to bother with this
    Nobody wants to bother with this. Trust me.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  6. #265
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    Mar 2015
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    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post

    Unlike most of you, I have only had this one hive for almost three years....guess what??? thats 100 % survival rate for almost three!!!!! years running and yes, with the help from a kind hearted samaratin last spring.

    This year I am going to Have to split them or they are going to swarm. Already their box is getting to be too small and we are only in the first month of spring here.
    If I was trying TF and had only one colony and that colony had survived three years, I would split it at every opportunity as insurance against the loss of such a promising line.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  7. #266
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    Aug 2014
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    England, UK
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    If I was trying TF and had only one colony and that colony had survived three years, I would split it at every opportunity as insurance against the loss of such a promising line.
    I can't follow the logic here - how is that colony 'promising' from a TF perspective if it needed to be treated last Spring ?

    However, if I only had one colony - then I'd certainly split it as an insurance against accidents, acts of god, and sheer bad luck.

    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #267
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I can't follow the logic here - how is that colony 'promising' from a TF perspective if it needed to be treated last Spring

    LJ
    I would call it promising in that it has survived three years with one treatment as opposed to many that don't survive after being treated multiple times, a few times a year.

    Also, I was trying to point out that I think she should split.

    Live long and prosper,
    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  9. #268
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    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I thought OT hit the nail squarely on the head when he wrote:


    Now although OT was referring to TF techniques, this applies to so many others as well. One of my techniques - which I believe is the core principle underpinning my own modest successes, is to run hives in a 'condenser' format.

    That is: to have highly insulated tops, little insulation at the sides, and as near as possible an open bottom. This format then condenses excess water and allows it to fall out of the hive and thus keep it 'sweet'. The bees over-winter near the top, where it's warmest - and where emergency supplies of feed are located during winter, just in case they should run out of stores. This methodology has been running like clockwork now for several years, and so I've posted about the 'advantages' of setting up hives in this way ... only for those who have prolonged and severe winters to quickly point out that if they were to follow suit, a solid block of ice would undoubtedly form beneath each hive as a result.

    I believe exactly the same 'lack of a universal formula' applies to TF issues. I treat mites with Vapourised Oxalic Acid (only) and would very much like to not be doing that. I know such a treatment is 'pointless' in the sense that it isn't a one-off cure, as re-infestation is a reality of life - but it is the only acceptable method I know of to keep the mites in check until such time as a more permanent solution is hopefully found.

    I have yet to encounter any TF regime or principal which gives any form of guarantee that it's adoption holds a realistic prospect of success - if one were demonstrated to exist, then I'd certainly try it. You said earlier that 'we' (presumably the 'treaters') have had 30 years to deal with the mites - but so too have the TF enthusiasts - and neither of these two groups are unfortunately any nearer to finding a practical long-term solution.

    LJ
    Hmm.
    Guess I need 11 more years of not treating for anything. Also haven't fed a colony since 2006. And gets very tempting to wipe out the 3rd Deeps for around 11 Tonnes.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  10. #269
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Hmm.
    Guess I need 11 more years of not treating for anything. Also haven't fed a colony since 2006. And gets very tempting to wipe out the 3rd Deeps for around 11 Tonnes.
    Well - other than sniping at my post, you're not actually "saying anything" which is informative, either for myself or anyone else.

    Suggest you give a little more information - such as how many colonies you lose and need to replace each year; what steps or interventions you engage in during the season - and so on ...

    There are quite a few beekeepers who claim to have been TF for long periods of time - but who also appear to be reluctant to give the fullest details of exactly how they operate.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  11. #270
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Since I stopped feeding in 2006, my colony counts spring to spring is more then previous year. There's NO "need to replace each year" lol. And forced to sell bees every other year.

    How to operate. Put bees in box( make sure they stay Queen right) add or subtract space when needed. Otherwise leave them alone! Simple as that.


    Yes, I will snipe at posts! Because like it or not, I'm not the one treating, feeding or buying bees!!!
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  12. #271
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    >There are quite a few beekeepers who claim to have been TF for long periods of time - but who also appear to be reluctant to give the fullest details of exactly how they operate.

    Interesting. I know a lot of them also and all of them are willing to share whatever you would like to know about how they operate.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  13. #272
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    tim, can you give us an estimate on how many hives you are running these days?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #273
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    tim, can you give us an estimate on how many hives you are running these days?
    Maintaining around 300 w/ 2000 supers. Needing a bigger building to be efficient on processing Honey.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  15. #274
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    And since we are all so willing to share, what is your total honey harvest. (honey that was packed into jars and sold) ?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #275
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    You know it is so easy to boast and brag about how great and wonderful your hives are especially not even treating or feeding, however you might be able to get away with that in your location but in my neck of the woods you would not have your colonies or much honey for very long unless you at least feed your bees in the late summer and fall. you would be lucky if you got close to 100 lbs of honey in those tall hives with maybe a 5 week flow in the early spring if we are lucky. So basically what I am trying to get through to some folks is what you may be able to do in one place you cannot do in another. So just thank your lucky stars that you are in an area that can provide for your bees.

  17. #276
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    i can not even imagine 2000 supers for 300 hives. Boggles the mind here. 20 hives, 40 supers, and I'm good. Even my most productive hive this past season couldn't fill and cap two mediums.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  18. #277
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I've heard the EXACT same thing around here.
    Hate to burst your bubble. Stop maintaining WEAK colonies. Yes, simple as that and no luck involved.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  19. #278
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Which is EXACTLY what OldTimer was talking about a short time back: those who are successful in one set of circumstances so often proceed to assume that they have discovered 'the secret of the Holy Grail' and further assume that their methods ought to apply equally to everyone, everywhere - and so that anyone who doesn't copy their example must either be mad, bad, stupid - or just plain wrong. Is it any wonder that such a pronounced schism exists between those who treat for mites and those who don't ?
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  20. #279
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Which is EXACTLY what OldTimer was talking about a short time back:.......... LJ
    This being said - in all fairness we should let OT and mischeif to hash this one out between themselves, the NZ beeks.


    Who are we, coming from N. America or the Old World, to tell them?
    But - it goes both ways.

    The same applies to the US regional and local situations.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #280
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    This being said - in all fairness we should let OT and mischeif to hash this one out between themselves, the NZ beeks.
    Hi Greg - it wasn't so much the Oldtimer/ Mischief dynamic (which I haven't been following/ don't understand/ and have zero interest in) which I was referring to, but rather that Tim Ives appears to be keeping his bees in a highly privileged setting ... but ... over time he has come to see that location as being 'normal', and the returns of honey - which really are superb - as being par for the course. He appears to think that the rest of us also live in similar privileged settings.

    As you know, I don't take a honey crop - if I did, then it would be a handful of pounds per hive. I feed because I have to; I treat because I have to.

    When I returned to beekeeping after several decades away earning a living, I immediately lost one colony due to starvation - because I didn't appreciate the difference in my present location from that of my youth. Likewise I lost colony after colony due to 'an unknown cause', resulting in a two-inch deep carpet of dead bees at the bottom of each hive which developed during the winter period. It was only after learning about the Varroa mite - something I'd never encountered as a schoolboy beekeeper - that I started treating with Oxalic Acid. And since then I've never looked back. No more starvation (because I now appreciate the need to feed within this area), and no more dead-outs from Varroa (because I now treat those mites).

    In a sense, I've already tried TF (although I didn't call it that at the time), and this resulted in colony losses. This idea that you can just put bees in a box and leave them alone to sort things out themselves may work for some people in some settings - but it didn't work for me. I've learned my lesson re: mites, and I ain't going back to pointlessly losing colonies. I wouldn't mind losing a few if it was part of some proven guaranteed blueprint to achieve a sustainable Treatment-Free apiary - but at present it would appear that no such animal (i.e. blueprint) exists.
    LJ
    Last edited by little_john; 09-20-2019 at 11:33 AM. Reason: clarificatioin
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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