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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Have you noticed anything along these lines that might be of help to us?
    Likely, a gene pool thing. New Zealanders could import, with MPI permission and a lengthy island quarantine, semen from docile, Varroa resistant or tolerant honeybees, such as those in Puerto Rico, to increase the gene pool. Of course, life finds a way, and the best laid plans of mice and men go awry, so you invariably run the risk of importing novel viruses. It’s a sticky wicket.
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

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  3. #122
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    There were a number of semen imports done around 20 ish years ago, and there was a lot of red tape around it plus almost impossible to meet demands to try to prevent new diseases getting in with the semen.

    All the same, over the next few years a number of new bee pathogens made their appearance in NZ. Nobody really knows if it was the semen or not, but some prominant people in the industry think it was. So, semen imports were banned, and have been since.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  4. #123

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death...

    Yet almost every weekend I talk to dozens of people personally who are keeping bees without treatments and succeeding. And emails every day from dozens more. There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally. How many more are there that I don't know of? How many just don't want to put their head up and get attacked by those who say they are the problem instead of the solution?
    There are many here too, mostly very small hobbyists. Most of them do "live and let die". MB is correct about this.
    But there is no advance. Because of the high losses this beeks are not considered. Therefore they donīt go public. Losses are up to 90% with local mutts but the survivors can be used.
    If the tf beeks are not going public this genetics are lost which is a shame.

    Plus, they are illegal because we have a law that forces us to treat.

    It might change. The treaters start to be interested the moment they hear there can be a strategy like soft bond. To have more resistant bees this needs more time but it prevents losses.
    And we are not illegal anymore doing this because having a strategy to show we are not persecuted.

  5. #124
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Most of them do "live and let die". MB is correct about this. But there is no advance. Because of the high losses this beeks are not considered. Therefore they donīt go public. Losses are up to 90% with local mutts but the survivors can be used.
    "success" is in the eye of the beholder I guess...
    unless a yard/stock is at least stable, but far better increasing, or a net exporter of bees I don't see it as a success.

    on a landscape scale, local sustainability with/with out treatments is stage one, till we hit that mark almost everything elce we do is washed away in a sea of foreign drones from queens sourced thousands of miles away brought in on a replacement treadmill

  6. #125

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    on a landscape scale, local sustainability with/with out treatments is stage one, till we hit that mark almost everything elce we do is washed away in a sea of foreign drones from queens sourced thousands of miles away brought in on a replacement treadmill
    These beliefs are pessimistic and do not lead to an improvement.
    They intimidate and prevent beekeepers from doing anything themselves.

    I call a sucess to have any survivors at all in some locale.

    The opposite of pessimistic views would be to unite and do something together. Difficult, but feasible, if you can not convince yourself quickly of the opposite. Meanwhile, there are also experienced beekeepers who rethink and are available for such ways and support the small hobbyist.

    It's time to leave the misgivings behind and take a fresh turn in the new directions.

  7. #126
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    The successful ones I talk to have the same loss rates as those around them who are treating or less.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  8. #127
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    These beliefs are pessimistic and do not lead to an improvement.
    They intimidate and prevent beekeepers from doing anything themselves.

    I call a sucess to have any survivors at all in some locale.

    The opposite of pessimistic views would be to unite and do something together. Difficult, but feasible, if you can not convince yourself quickly of the opposite. Meanwhile, there are also experienced beekeepers who rethink and are available for such ways and support the small hobbyist.

    It's time to leave the misgivings behind and take a fresh turn in the new directions.
    It’s not pessimism, it is a fact.
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  9. #128
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    ........almost everything elce we do is washed away in a sea of foreign drones from queens sourced thousands of miles away brought in on a replacement treadmill........
    We'll see about this exact issue.
    Maybe not necessarily "washed away".
    I am yet to see anyone running their own local "drone generators" by design (outside of what SiWolKe mentioned maybe going in Euro)

    It is all about "young queens" and more "young queens" and more.... of the same.

    Well, the old, desirable queens are very much part of the local sustainability program and are to be kept around for as long as possible - yes, for drone generation.
    Heck, a queen can be kept around for 5-6 years easily and pump desirable drones for local consumption just as well.
    The pre-planned local drone production is, essentially, non-existent.

    It is the opposite ideas that are in favor right now - let us cull them drones.
    God forbid if bees will make some drone comb - cut that junk out.
    A big mistake as the desirable drones should be in demand and generated by design.
    People should be begging for local "drone pollination" services - I am yet to see this.
    Well, working on it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #129
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    [QUOTE=msl;1677353]"success" is in the eye of the beholder I guess...
    unless a yard/stock is at least stable, but far better increasing, or a net exporter of bees I don't see it as a success.
    <Snip>
    /QUOTE]

    Yes, in the eye and on the tongue! There are some quite creative ways of measuring losses, one being the neglect to account for multiple splits and combining just before collapse. Some of the testimonial style reporting leaves room for plenty of skepticism.

    Unless valid statistics are available comparing the actual number of people who attempt and fail and drop from the scene, compared to the number still successful after 3 or 4 years, the claims are highly misleading about the relative ease of being successfully TF on a reasonably remunerative level.

    If you go to a faith healing convention and ask for a show of hands you will have a disproportionate level of people who will swear to have been cured. If you are of the mindset to be convinced by that obviously flawed sort of information gathering, well..........
    Frank

  11. #130
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    GregV “The pre-planned local drone production is, essentially, non-existent. “
    Maybe I’m missing something here but most “good” queen producers have just that.
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  12. #131
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    GregV “The pre-planned local drone production is, essentially, non-existent. “
    Maybe I’m missing something here but most “good” queen producers have just that.
    I am not talking of large scale industrial queen producers.
    Drone generation or artificial insemination is part of their conveyor line.
    I am not aware of any large-scale queen sellers representing themselves here.
    So let's just put them away.

    I am talking of little, local guys like me - 20(+/-) hives.
    Better yet - a community of little, local guys.
    Everyone should be thinking of your own "drone generation" IF you care to have some sort of a local bee at all.
    If you don't to it, the large-scale queen seller will do it for you - not the best option.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #132
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I agree with that; the beekeepers around me still don’t have any type of sustainable apiary. They all import bees whether nucs or packages from the south. Very disenhartening. A guy who started the same time as I did, going into our 7th year, has never heard of Randy Oliver, Mike Palmer, etc.
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  14. #133
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Re the thousands of successful TF beekeepers, Solomon Parkers TF Facebook page has (i think) in excess of 20,000 members.

    So it's highly likely that Michael Bush would indeed get what must seem like thousands of emails, and of course, many of these people telling him they are successful.

    Even here in NZ, there have been a fair number of people pop up from time to time on the local internet telling us they are successfully keeping TF bees. They will bend, or omit, the truth a bit also, forgetting to mention they catch 10 new swarms each year and have been catching around 10 a year for the last 4 years, current hive numbers, 10. Stuff like that.

    However I've been around a while and know everyone, or, someone who does, and can usually find out where people are really at. ALL the NZ internet posters who have claimed to be successful TF beekeepers, are not. None of them. But that is not what a casual reader would be led to believe reading their posts.

    And I am not even applying a rigorous definition of successful such as, TF and harvesting honey. I'm just using a basic definition, ie, don't treat, and have hives that have survived long term (2 plus years). Regardless of honey crop.

    I did get to the 2 year mark with some of my own TF bees, probably a NZ record. But by that time they were in a very bad way, and done for.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  15. #134
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    A big mistake as the desirable drones should be in demand and generated by design.
    agreed, and to the point I was making was when it comes to drones a f-2+ (local X import) overwinter queen and hive is better then a puppy mill import queen and package come spring, even if it takes some IPM to get it to survive.
    The OG queen is tossing her genetics in drones.
    While the colonys workers and thuse performance in a F-1 is impacted by the local drones she mated with, they are throwing drones with the genetics of OG QueenX and foren drones she mated with.
    Its not till F-2 we see the out flow of "local" genetics back to the environment. Simply put drones don''t have fathers, but they have grandfathers, you need to get to the point were the grandfathers/great grand fathers are of the stock you want for the drones to be help full in inacting change...
    Another way to look at it is drones don't have sons, but they have grandsons

    when people can't keep hives alive long enuff to get to that point (3rd year for many ), the net effect is the area is flooded with foren drones from replacement stock sourced form far away. This wipes out adaptation as the poor genetics are not removed from the breeding pool when a hive dies, they are replaced with more of the same.

    The way off the treadmill is local sustainability beekeeping. Keeping your bees alive, making up your own replacements, and having a few extra in the spring for those who were not so lucky/skilled.

    If the majority of backyard beekeepers took care of there mites, and pulled/overwintered a nuc per full sized hive things would be very different and some work on the problem would be possibly, the price of bees would fall as craigs list would be flooded with local nucs come spring... and the shift from replacments being foren packages to local nucs would alow localy adapted and mite resistant gentnics to be developed and take hold....

    but... theres more... the bigist issue is people NOT using resistant stocks... the TF message is you have to breed them your self, this is hurt full to the cause. The reason TF isn't working/spreading isn't that such bees can't/don't exist.... Its that there isn't a market for them. Some of that is the "do it your self" message, some of it is the let them die message... hives fail, mite bombs can take out the best stock... understanding the need to sometimes protect your stock going back to the drone issue... those queens and there f-1s would be distributing resistance genetics and should be protected... even if it takes treatments... as the area will be better off for it.
    we need to encourage people to buy and then propagate local drivitives of them.

    We need to demand resistant stock instead of settling for puppy mill package queens. Once we are sustainable we have choices, it becomes a buyers market, and we would not bee like many are now, buying anything they can, in a panic to place an order before the bees are sold out for the year... The pre orders have allready started in my area

    its simple suply and demand.... if the puppy mills were left holding a bunch of unsold packages and all the Russian/VSH queens were sold out, it wouln't take but a year or 2 for the queen producers to start shifting what they were making...

    we (the US) have done this once.... when Italian bees came in there was a huge demand (genital and more productive is a huge incentive) .... threw mass production and constant re queening the bee gentnics of a country was shifted...
    before then a queen was a queen.... but all of a suden people could get $20 for an Italian queen (near $600 in todays $$$),it's no coincidence the classic queen rearing manuals came out in this era. The market demanded... the queen producers answered

    We are back to a queen is a queen/I will take what ever I can get (hobbyist market)... In till that changes we get no were..

    I am talking of little, local guys like me - 20(+/-) hives.
    Better yet - a community of little, local guys.
    Everyone should be thinking of your own "drone generation" IF you care to have some sort of a local bee at all..
    yes... and no....
    ego says your bees are better...the math, not so much. see my drone points. the reality is everyone should be looking in to drone suppression of sub par stock, the bottom 90%... alive dose not make breeding stock...

    there are those who understand the facts about bees and those the don't....devil take the hindmost...if only one could keep them from spreading like a mite bomb..

    WE
    created this problem, and the TF movement is far from with out blame
    the fix is simple.... locals stop bringing in (or saveing swarms from) package bees...
    Last edited by msl; 10-31-2018 at 10:48 PM.

  16. #135

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    article in november 2018 bees magazine:

    How much we have bred in the last decades in the direction of strong mites is shown, among other things, by the ever-increasing damage threshold:
    In 1980, when it was still at 6,000 and more mites, most colonies today already crash at an infestation of less than 2,500 mites , In 1980, winter treatment ( OA) was enough to save the colonieīs survival.

    Later, this was replaced by a treatment in late summer by formic acid. The treatment in winter was then an additional option for a long time. But by the end of the nineties, it could not be avoided. Until the turn of the millennium, many hives died before treatment in late summer. In order to lower the mite infestation early, the removal of drone brood became the most important method before or during the spring flow.

    Since 2015, it is said, especially with late flow, not without a kind of intermediate treatment in the summer to get along.
    Therefore, the management of total brood frame culling was started during the swarming period.
    author:
    Dr. Wolfgang Ritter


    GregV
    It is all about "young queens" and more "young queens" and more.... of the same.
    Well, the old, desirable queens are very much part of the local sustainability program and are to be kept around for as long as possible - yes, for drone generation.

    The constant shifting of queens kills a good hiveīs genetics which would stay much longer to throw drones.

    crofter.
    There are some quite creative ways of measuring losses, one being the neglect to account for multiple splits and combining just before collapse. Some of the testimonial style reporting leaves room for plenty of skepticism.
    Treaters count their losses like that!
    Last edited by 1102009; 11-01-2018 at 10:58 AM.

  17. #136
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I suppose everyone is guilty of some degree of confirmation bias and lack of objectivity, but this is classic!

    "How much we have bred in the last decades in the direction of strong mites is shown, among other things, by the ever-increasing damage threshold:"

    The mites immediate damage to the adult bee and to the developing pupae is nothing compared to the vectored viral and other disease. New viruses have been introduced that the mites easily spread around without any need for adaptation on their part. I think this is a quite likely a more plausible cause behind any apparent need to keep mite levels lower than has been recommended in the past.
    Frank

  18. #137

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I suppose everyone is guilty of some degree of confirmation bias and lack of objectivity, but this is classic!

    "How much we have bred in the last decades in the direction of strong mites is shown, among other things, by the ever-increasing damage threshold:"

    The mites immediate damage to the adult bee and to the developing pupae is nothing compared to the vectored viral and other disease. New viruses have been introduced that the mites easily spread around without any need for adaptation on their part. I think this is a quite likely a more plausible cause behind any apparent need to keep mite levels lower than has been recommended in the past.

    he just stated the obvious, increase of treatments at lower numbers of mites. Where will it end?
    Perhaps he should mention that we bred bees without an immune system because of the constantly rising treatments and other factors.

  19. #138
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    The mites immediate damage to the adult bee and to the developing pupae is nothing compared to the vectored viral and other disease. New viruses have been introduced that the mites easily spread around without any need for adaptation on their part. I think this is a quite likely a more plausible cause behind any apparent need to keep mite levels lower than has been recommended in the past.
    That is not just plausible, it's a fact.


    I don't really know what a "strong mite" is.

    Could it be one that works out, and goes to the gym?


    But seriously what i do know, is that when varroa mites were introduced to bee populations, virus levels in bees were not only thousand of times lower than they would become over the next decade or two but also a different biomix.


    In NZ, it took a decade after the introduction of varroa, for virus levels in bees to increase to massive levels thousands of times higher than natural. And then after that, for the viruses to be competing and selecting towards virulent ones, and less virulent ones no longer showing up in laboratory analysis. We now have a whole different mix of viruses in our bees than we did the first few years after the introduction of varroa, the mix has been selecting and shifting and getting more deadly, thanks to their little varroa allies. Be those varroa "strong", or not. They all penetrate the bees skin to feed, injecting pathogens.


    As this process happened, the treatment threshold for mite numbers was lowered as the diseases they were spreading became so high, and so deadly. Me now, when deciding wether to treat, I don't even take much notice of the mite levels, I look for the diseases they spread, by looking for pms, weak adults, etc, these things tell me if the mites need treating.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-01-2018 at 01:23 PM.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  20. #139
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    In 1980, when it was still at 6,000 and more mites, most colonies today already crash at an infestation of less than 2,500 mites , In 1980, winter treatment ( OA) was enough to save the colonieīs survival.
    How does he know that then ? MOST colonies ? So who's keeping a world-wide register of mite crashes and counting the number of mites in 'em ?

    Personally, I don't have mite crashes anymore - thanks (until this year) to a single winter dose of Oxalic Acid. I'm only currently engaging in multiple-doses with a view to a complete elimination, as opposed to ongoing mite population control.

    Also - check this out:
    In this study, we found an ideal biological framework to test the hypothesis of Milani (2001). This author postulated that the risk of emergence of resistance for the oxalic acid is high if its use is prolonged in time.
    [...]
    These results indicate that the Varroa population from the Federal apiary remained susceptible to the OA despite its prolonged use in time. It was also interesting that this 'focal' population resulted more susceptible to the acid than the 'naïve' population with mites never exposed to it.

    The susceptibility of Varroa destructor against oxalic acid: a study case. Maggi et al., Bulletin of Insectology 70(1), 2017
    LJ

    Link:
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...study-case.pdf
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  21. #140
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I find it amazing and disgusting that "stuff" poorly supported in fact, gets spread on the forums with such chest thumping certainty!

    Many people are intimidated into letting it ride without questioning.
    Frank

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