Do I really need to medicate? - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Mr. Jungels

    First name Bo ?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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  3. #102
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    The OP is (was...don't see them around this thread) a inexperienced beekeeper with 2 hives of package bees.
    Why dose a tread like this always become a soap box for the TF crowd to try to talk a new beekeeper in to killing their hives?

    Beekeeping is a numbers game not religion.... you need to play the odds if you want bees come spring.

    telling the OP "Yes, you should treat for mites this year, spend the winter researching, and go buy a few Bweaver queens (sence the OP is in TX) come spring " will have a much better chance of the OP becoming a TF beekeeper... vs becoming an ex beekeeper
    no one (or very, very few)has been a success going TF with package bees
    the pseudoscience and outher "great" ideas like microbes/scorpins etc needs to go way as does bond, neither has paned out, neither is a reasonable path forward.
    We know from gotland what happens when we remove the beekeeper (true bond) Fries etal 2006 -150 hives in 8 apiaries became 7 hives 5 years later.... despite swarm collecting and feeding
    fries 2006 bond.jpg
    2004 they had to intervene and make splits to keep the stock from being lost

    As JL notes, TF is an advanced beekeeping skill, not suited to the beginner.
    As Sam comfort talks about.... You need to learn to be a sustainable beekeeper 1st... once that is obtained then you can work on not treating.
    the title of his latest video say it all "TF, but not stupid"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh4A_WtTLEg

    less stupidity, more sustainability and reality is whats needed....
    going TF on package bees is stupidity, they NEED to be medicated
    Last edited by msl; 10-29-2018 at 03:21 PM.

  4. #103

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    First name Bo ?
    Paul

  5. #104
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    JL he was making a cultural reference/joke on a popular 1970s US song
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LVXR6rjXs

  6. #105

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?



    Got me on that one...

    great song, I just love it

  7. #106
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    You are on it MSL
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  8. #107
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I just wish I could walk with a soft sole shoe instead of a hard head... Like mark I tire of this game

  9. #108

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post

    The question still to be answered is whether these 100% VSH breeders offspring can stand mite pressure when their daughter queens are sold all over Europe.
    You donīt know if you donīt try.
    Why do you think Erik sells his queens to a price we can afford? He wants to have some feedback and he gets it. Whatīs great is, all beeks I know who have elgons never treated them so we can watch what happens.

    OT,
    thanks for the kind words.

    msl,
    you seem to think new beekeepers are not able to use their brains.
    The posts on this forum are so varied in the opinions nobody is brainwashed.

  10. #109
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    Jan 2017
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    South Waikato New Zealand
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    193

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Banging my head here!!
    My question is.....how come some are treatment free with what appears to be little effort, while the rest of us are too busy slinging mud at each other and we havent yet got to where we what to be?
    Is there a missing step here somewhere?

  11. #110

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Banging my head here!!
    My question is.....how come some are treatment free with what appears to be little effort, while the rest of us are too busy slinging mud at each other and we havent yet got to where we what to be?
    Is there a missing step here somewhere?
    Itīs the circumstances of your location.

    Have feral survivors around to bring good genetics and to provide your beeyard with new colonies after high losses is what many do, catching swarms.
    Isolation and distributing of your own genetics via drones helps much.

    I have not such advantage. No ferals and no swarms around.I have weak stock all around, treated prophylactically all the time, propagating strong survivor mites, I have high density of hives in my area. Iīm not the least isolated.
    If I would do like Michael Bush can or others do, being able to ignoring the mite situation, I had no bees left after one season. I tried this once with an artificial swarm, made of local mutts and they were dead in a few months.

    Iīm really amazed I still have some survivors which must be the resistant bred stock I use now. But letīs see how it will be in spring.

    By the way: My first colony was treated and they died too. 30-40% deadouts from treated hives are normal here in my locale.

  12. #111
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Oh SiW, I wasnt having a go at you! or any one else.
    I despair, even though I have managed so far to have zero loses with my one hive. I just do not understand why some can have healthy hives and we o not.
    there must be missing factors or we would all be able to do as MB etc... are.

    We dont have ferals either.
    Sadly, we here, also have a huge problem with AFB compared to other countries.
    Those that are treating here are having to leave their treatments in for 2 extra weeks, viral loads here appear to be viralent compared to earlier years.

    I just think we are missing something important, a missing link, a missing something that would change things if we could just see what it was.

  13. #112

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Iīm never offended!

    I just think we are missing something important, a missing link, a missing something that would change things if we could just see what it was.
    Wish I would know!
    I created a feral hive which lives now since 2016, never opened and it still thrives and goes into winter strong and Iīm observing some escaped swarms living in stone walls.
    Could be left alone will help.

    We are a group in my forum which works on the improvements, the longest lived tf bees are 6 years now but my co-worker is an excellent seasoned beekeeper who knows exactly what to do to keep his bees strong.
    Losses so far + - 30% which is great.

    But itīs about beekeeping and we want to have some honey. So livestock husbandry is not "having" bees.

    So why not just learn from the bees and monitor what happens right now while treating and become more experienced? There are many approaches to tf and if you only need some OAV instead of formic or other hard chemicals you do the first step in the right direction.

  14. #113
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Thanks, those are all good points.
    I did start off with the softest-FGMO, so, yes, I will keep on trying.

  15. #114
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    Aug 2014
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I'm lost - totally and utterly lost.

    I think my basic problem is that I have absolutely zero understanding of the core principles (the aims and objectives) of the TF movement. I understand the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' - and although I'm pessimistic about this approach to Varroa, at least I can understand the fundamental principles involved.

    Now in my lexicon - intervention, management, or any form of human activity designed to influence an organism's behaviour or remedy a problem is a treatment - originally from the Latin tractare meaning to "manage, handle, deal with, or conduct oneself toward", and used within the field of medicine from 1780 onwards to mean "to attempt to heal or cure, to manage in the application of remedies".

    But - within the context of 'Treatment-Free' - I'm now reading about human selection of genetic strains, and the use of Artificial Insemination techniques to promote these strains ... at the expense of others. - i.e. which will effectively result in a well-intentioned but cavalier reduction of the gene pool. How do either of these square with the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' ?

    The problems which the beekeeping community currently find themselves in are a direct consequence of human interference - of people arrogantly thinking that they are smarter than Nature - and yet here we see exactly the same thinking being applied: that OUR choice of genetic strain - because it happens to deal with a problem we currently find too tough for us to deal with - is the magic solution. But at what future cost ?

    Although we've been stumbling about in the dark for many years, we appear now to be at the threshold of some major advances towards the understanding of how best to deal with Varroa. It's only very recently that the food source of the (so-called) phoretic mites has been identified, and so our knowledge is beginning to develop at long last. Perhaps very shortly we'll even begin to understand how Oxalic Acid itself has such a dramatic effect upon the mites. Until then, I for one am prepared to play a waiting game until an increase in our understanding hopefully leads to a widespread reduction in mite numbers, so that they eventually become an occasional problem to be dealt with, rather than an essential component of the beekeeping calendar.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  16. #115

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Thanks, those are all good points.
    I did start off with the softest-FGMO, so, yes, I will keep on trying.
    The time window is spring to summer, the measures must then be completed so that the bees can prepare undisturbed for the winter and store the supplies.
    J.Lee, a member here in the forum, told me about a friend who has been removing the first drone brood in spring when capped, for years and is tf for many years. Only this, no contaminated comb by treatments.
    There are a lot fewer mites in the hive after this culling.
    You can do that and then see how high the mite infestation is in the spring when you open the cells, pull out the pupa, and see how many mites are in the cells.
    It's good to try something like that, even if it's not a nice job. The bees then breed new drones.
    After that, you can decide if and how much you treat, in OAV you have to treat several times, as the mites do not die in the brood.
    How do either of these square with the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' ?
    What nature? Man made nature?

    Wild honeybees are almost extinct in europe so we have only "lifestock" bees.
    Perhaps a time will come our bees are regressed so much they are like wild honeybees again, but I donīt see anyone wanting wild honeybees with their wild behaviours except some scientists who want them to improve lifestock genetics.
    If I had a cow giving 40l of milk every day I would not let her run free either. She will not survive.

  17. #116
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    How do either of these square with the concept of 'letting Nature take it's course' ?
    What nature? Man made nature?
    I think (or at least had assumed) that the expression meant "letting Natural processes take their course" - i.e. to allow something to happen without trying to control or influence it in any way. i.e. - it relates to a mechanism, not an end-state.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  18. #117
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    >But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death...

    Yet almost every weekend I talk to dozens of people personally who are keeping bees without treatments and succeeding. And emails every day from dozens more. There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally. How many more are there that I don't know of? How many just don't want to put their head up and get attacked by those who say they are the problem instead of the solution?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #118
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post


    Hey Oldtimer. How ya been. What you said is one reason I stopped Posting.
    Hi Mark, have missed you here also, you have much experience and wisdom to share, so does Oldtimer. Some people have a hard time getting over themselves, so to speak, don’t let it ruin your sharing.
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  20. #119
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    Jan 2017
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    South Waikato New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >But the consequence of a Varroa mite infestation is invariably death...

    Yet almost every weekend I talk to dozens of people personally who are keeping bees without treatments and succeeding. And emails every day from dozens more. There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally. How many more are there that I don't know of? How many just don't want to put their head up and get attacked by those who say they are the problem instead of the solution?

    I continually wonder what the difference is between those of you who are able to keep bees without treatments and those of us who are not yet able to do so.
    There must be something we are not doing or locational things that we may be able to correct if we just knew what they were.

    I thought at first that it must be that you are all experienced Beeks, but there are also alot of those who are not able to be TF.

    Have you noticed anything along these lines that might be of help to us?

  21. #120
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    There are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers that I know of personally.
    with all due respect michael i have to question this.

    i've suggested that the best way to become treatment free is to find someone in your area having success with it and obtain bees and advice from them.

    if there are thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers out there it shouldn't be as difficult as it appears to be for those interested to locate them.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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