Do I really need to medicate? - Page 16
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  1. #301
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    ....When looking at the genetics, there was absolutely no difference comparing the local survivors to the commercial migratory stock. OTOH, when comparing genetics of the mites in those colonies, big difference.

    Final conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....

    .
    I honestly ignore more and more all the smart words said by the smart people.
    I guess they need to earn their paychecks.

    The black box approaches and observations - work plenty well.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #302
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Resistance of Primorsky bees was discovered in Far East Russia, then confirmed in US, then confirmed in Central Europe, then Finland...

    Bee genetics, that is the answer.
    Agreed Juhani.

    (Sarcasm ON).
    Mite differences - of course they exist. Why wouldn't they?
    Just like the bee differences.
    But yes, Primorsky bees should have all died by now in the US due to the mite differences they encountered here.
    Mites in the Far East are surely different some - they did not bring those to the US along with the Russian bees.

    Mites' migratory nature and continuous mixing is fully attached to the same of the bees.
    I don't know why even talk of different mites - it is un-measurable and un-traceable pretty much.
    For sure mites are not static in time and place.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #303
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    It is not the corn/soy field that define the special location.
    It is the presence of already naturally adapted bees - that what defines the special location.

    Jason Bruns (a swarm chaser from Indiana) tells very well how many feral bees are actually present in the corn/soy Indiana back country.
    I believe him.

    Tim, I will let you and OT to hash out your differences.
    I am out of it.

    I do envy you for your special bees.
    Consider selling queens?
    You should.
    I'll fill you in on how that happen in this area. One of my mentors that past away in 2010 age 92, and kept bees since he was 13. Maintaned 10 colonies, sold nucs each year( had not bought bees in several deacades) was Highly against any treatments including AFB. He was the person responsible for teaching me on how to raise AFB resistance. 2009 I took 12 splits from my best colonies and got the Queens bred in his area. Then divided those up amongst my yards at that time. So, yes I riding the momentum of this area.
    When Randy Oliver was here in 2012 writing a article for ABJ on neonics(july12 ABJ). One of his first Questions was how are you setting these colonies up ? My response was "put bees in box, add or subtract space when needed and make sure colonies stay Queen right. Otherwise leave them alone. R.O. so just good old fashion beekeeping, nothing new. No, Holy grails or secrets. Lol.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  5. #304
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Wait what? Total nonsense. If this beekeeper was truly TF, he would know how to deal with AFB, without treating or Burning the colony.
    Oh, he was truly TF, extreme version of, dedicated Dee Lusby follower.

    In fact his belief and committment was so fierce, that when his hives all died he just could not reconcile his beliefs with reality, and got mental issues.

    The problem with TF beekeepers who think their bees can "deal" with AFB, is they don't consider that bees have already been TF for thousands of years, but still get AFB. Proving the theory wrong right there.

    AFB achieved a natural balance with bees, killing hives and spreading from one hive to another. But hives were widely spread, wax moths did their work on dead remains, and bees swarmed enough to keep the wild populations going.

    That all changed 150 years ago with the introduction of the moveable frame hive and the later introduction of the combustion engine, which completely changed how beekeeping is done. Commercial beekeeping is now done in a way that greatly favors the spread of AFB, AFB has way more advantages than it did when bees where in a wild setting, the balance has been tipped in favor of AFB.

    Destroying infected hives removes those genetics, achieving the same aim that TF people are always talking about in regards to mites.

    Yes, there are some hives that will throw off an AFB infection. But never all hives.

    What do you say Tim, to all the beekeepers who's bees have never been treated for EFB, but are losing hives to EFB? How does that work?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 09-21-2019 at 02:17 PM.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  6. #305
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    ....So, yes I riding the momentum of this area....
    And good for you.
    Treating in your location would only be a set back for such great bees.

    A matter of fact, people in some places should not be treating either (they probably just don't know it and assume otherwise).
    And of course, there are totally opposite places too.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #306
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Leo Sharashkin says some of the things we discussed above.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0hlf-O184

    Like it or leave it.
    There are places, like mine, where you just have to introduce some outside bees.
    Saturation by the unfit imported packages just kill the sustainability for us here - the Italians, the "almond bees", and such junk.

    BUT the import of the desired qualities IF done properly could actually function here well and long-term.
    TF bees with appropriate winter hardiness should be a welcome import.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #307
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    F
    inal conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....
    I would love a link to the study if you could find it

    Interesting experiment A Novice, I hadn't heard about that one.
    sounds like Seeley 2016
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0150362
    Bee genetics, that is the answer
    yep, but I noted that in there opening presentations At Apimondia bolth Sam Comfort and kirk Kirk Webster were putting management and environment on par or above genetics...

    W
    ait what? Total nonsense. If this beekeeper was truly TF, he would know how to deal with AFB, without treating or Burning the colony
    Too funny, all we need to look at is Jacob Wustner’s presation at the Organically Managed Beekeeping Conference last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPn-uUmbZwY
    OTs post 304 is on point..
    with the exception that I disagree with the casting shade at moveable frame hives, Sam Comfort does that a lot, and it bugs me…
    Its quite clear from Quimby’s writings the foulbrood out breaks predate frames..
    Hive gets weak and gets robbed… now its every were in the yard, no swapping of frames needed to cause the issue. I would argue the start of shipping of queens (with candy made with honey) is the engine of the spread

  9. #308
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I honestly ignore more and more all the smart words said by the smart people.
    I guess they need to earn their paychecks.

    The black box approaches and observations - work plenty well.
    Comment reminds me of this meme.



    No point even going any farther down this road, folks have their mind made up and no amount of evidence to the contrary will make them re-think. See this a lot in aviation forums when the flat earth believers show up.

  10. #309
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    Comment reminds me of this meme.



    .
    Let's not get personal now and start tossing personal insults.
    I was not.
    Was I insulting anyone, especially you?

    Smart me.

    As far as the subject - it is getting too old to keep following all those knee-jerk reactions' based "science reports".
    Some researchers are prone to announce something they just discovered/invented - before anyone else did.
    Being first at all cost.

    Treat - not treat - treat differently - different mites - different bees - ......whatever, I don't follow the pop-culture science too closely so to keep adjusting my life-style to them on monthly basis...
    I think I made that clear enough.
    Back to basic beekeeping and done with.

    Black box approaches are better for most basic practitioners - no mandatory need to understand the detailed mechanisms (pretty much not understood anyway - now it is the mite variation is at fault as proposed - so what am I to do about it? Anything?).
    Last edited by GregV; 09-22-2019 at 12:45 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #310
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    See this a lot in aviation forums when the flat earth believers show up.
    I dont know grozzie, from 10,000' msl the earth does look pretty flat, especially once you get into the midwest.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #311
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    We need buttons for Like, Funny, etc.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #312

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    The earth is NOT flat. If it were, cats would have pushed everything off of the edge by now...

  14. #313

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    ...
    Last edited by A Novice; 09-22-2019 at 03:39 PM. Reason: went in the wrong location..

  15. #314

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Not necessarily so.
    Again, do not be afraid to run "throw away" large hives (such hive can be supported by extra 1-2 nucs).

    You have to have the "propagation/expansion" branch.
    And you have to run the "production/throw away" branch.

    The idea of clinging to each and ever hive at all cost is not productive.

    The only bees worth saving at all costs - are your main propagation/expansion queens (say, I have TWO such TF queens now and some of their daughters will be IF they survive the winter).

    I have 16 other laying queens on hand right now - ALL 2019 summer production - these all are not-tested yet or maybe just junk as is (but I will let them fight it out best they can).
    It takes a good winter at least and then we'll see what is really going on again.
    All are the production bees are easily replaceable (especially if you plan for it and just run your operations around this idea).
    Greg, that makes a lot of sense.

    It won't work for me, though, as I am limited by ordinance to 2 hives.

    I run them as 2 queen (sometimes 4 queen) hives, without any great success, though my bees are alive, and I hope to take 4 queens with bees through the winter. I got about 60 pounds of honey, and that is all I really need. I feed more than I should probably, but if I lose a colony I don't want it to be due to starvation. If October is warm, they go through a lot of stores.

    I don't doubt if I was keeping bees for my livelihood, I would do things a lot differently. Meanwhile, it treat more than I would like, and it seems effective. I don't do a lot of monitoring of mite levels, as with the long robbing period we have, I have had my hives go from almost no mites to heavily infested in two weeks. I suspect most of the hives in my area are from first or second year wannabee keepers, who have heard about treatment free, and have a couple of packages of Italians from California. They make excellent mite bombs. I live in one of those sprawling midwestern US suburbs, with no commercial beekeepers within 10 miles or so.

    Also, with only two hives, I really can't develop genetics favorable to treatment free, as my sample size is too small to make intelligent decisions. I might get lucky, but I probably wouldn't know it. There is too much randomness in beekeeping. Far too many unknowns.

    It is instructive to look at some of the research Randy Oliver has done. He is unusual, in that he gives you the results warts and all, not trying to hide the ugliness in the data, which most researchers do.

    When you look at that, you see the large variation between seemingly identical hives - sister queens, mixed bees, etc. One produces very well, the one next to it dies.

    Unless you have at least 30 hives, I do not think you can infer much of anything from your success or failure in a given year, (provided they don't all die by early July or something as dramatic as that) Looking for something 20% better isn't possible, as there is so much noise in the data.

    As a result, beekeepers are a superstitious and opinionated lot. (Makes me fit right in).

  16. #315
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Novice View Post
    ......
    It won't work for me, though, as I am limited by ordinance to 2 hives.
    .....
    I got about 60 pounds of honey,
    .....
    Unless you have at least 30 hives
    .
    I do recognize the ordinance problem and how counter-productive it may be.
    My original limitation was ONE hive per a backyard.
    Well, that hindrance pushed me in the direction of establishing several bee yards (a good strategy, regardless; I am glad I did this).

    Guess what - the ordinances are subject to change.
    Ours is now SIX hives per a residential backyard - took me some foot-work, talking to few people, and attending few City Council meetings, and a good luck of having a fellow beekeeper on the City Council.

    I find my physical limit to be about 20 units.
    Beyond that it is hard to manage and need more equipment.
    But that it is what you need to strive for - for basic redundancy and eliminating the dependency on the treatments.

    Agreed - running just 2-3 hives make your options very limited.
    To console you, I got just about the same amount of honey harvested from all the hives I have now - well, the multi-directional program is expensive in resource costs - bees need honey too.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-22-2019 at 08:16 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #316
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Novice View Post
    The earth is NOT flat. If it were, cats would have pushed everything off of the edge by now...
    As I drove my daughter to her 6am cross-country practice this morning I thought:
    - Hmmm.... for all practical purposes of my daily life - The Earth is FLAT and only slightly hilly.

    Indeed, this over-used cliche of the "Earth NOT being flat" is getting old.
    Only 0.00000001 of the Earthly population have use and care for the special, nominally spherical shape of our planet.

    Population of Nepal, in general, spend their entire life on the slopes of various degrees and have entirely different perspective about "what IS the shape of the Earth".
    I don't even know what they think about the subject (I did not Google).
    Last edited by GregV; 09-23-2019 at 05:57 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #317
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Only 0.00000001 of the Earthly population have use and care for the special, nominally spherical shape of our planet.
    Not entirely true! Every pilot (and I imagine sailors as well) knows that the shortest distance between two points is an arc, not a straight line. This is due to the curvature of the planet. Just something to mull over and argue about with your math teacher.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  19. #318
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Not entirely true! Every pilot (and I imagine sailors as well) knows that the shortest distance between two points is an arc, not a straight line. This is due to the curvature of the planet. Just something to mull over and argue about with your math teacher.
    That # does include the pilots (0.000000... whatever - the point is - this is a very small # in terms of universal population)
    No, I did not forget the pilots as well as most everyone concerned with the long-distance and high altitude navigation (space flight professionals, for example).
    Ok, toss in few climate-concerned professionals/researches too, for a good measure (since the global air movements are affected by the Earth not being flat).

    My math is fine for the purposes of the given topic, otherwise.

    Interestingly - there is a whole branch of applied science that include topography and geodesy - with these sciences largely concerned how to represent the actual imperfect Earth surface onto the idealized, flat projections (i.e. paper maps).
    I could only pull a B in my applied topography class, no matter how much I love much more idealistic geometry and trigonometry...
    Fun, but also hard and borderline boring stuff.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-23-2019 at 10:33 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #319
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I dont know grozzie, from 10,000' msl the earth does look pretty flat, especially once you get into the midwest.
    It's all a matter of perspective JW. When you sit there at 10,000, push the 'make noise' handle as far forward as it can go, then lift the nose. When the altimeter reads fl450 take a good look out front. For most dramatic effect, you want to be westbound over the ocean looking into a sunset (it will be rising if you have a fast airplane).

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Not entirely true! Every pilot (and I imagine sailors as well) knows that the shortest distance between two points is an arc, not a straight line. This is due to the curvature of the planet. Just something to mull over and argue about with your math teacher.
    It wouldn't be much of an arguement with a properly qualified math teacher. They would immediately point out, for short distances, measuring strait lines and/or doing 2d trigonometry on a mercator projection map will be close enough. Not correct, but, close enough. But after some distance comes into the scenario, then you need to upgrade and use spherical trigonometry to get a correct solution for distances, and when projected onto a globe rather than a flat mercator projection, the great circle is indeed a strait line. But then if you want to get really persnickety, earth is not actually a sphere and great circle math still gives an error on the order of 1% for long distances that are not essentially north/south/ This is why a gps uses WGS84 standard to calculate distances, the spec for an oblate spheroid that represents the shape of the earth mathematically and provides distance solutions to an accuracy of 0.01% over any distance.

  21. #320
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I honestly ignore more and more all the smart words said by the smart people.
    I guess they need to earn their paychecks.
    this all started reference my comments about what I heard from folks doing genetic analysis. Your interesting response is nothing more than a slur at 'smart people' implying that you know better.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Indeed, this over-used cliche of the "Earth NOT being flat" is getting old.
    And then this.

    And folks wonder why Beesource content has been going downhill so much over the last couple years. This makes it pretty obvious.

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