Do I really need to medicate? - Page 8
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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,683

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    One needs to look at where all this learned rhetoric from comes' mostly from a group of beekeepers who do not produce much from their hives other than the hot air that keeps telling folks that are making a living or income from their bees that they are doing it all wrong. For most of these folks just the survival of a colony is an indication of success. I wonder how many of these folks are leasing out colonies for pollination, shucks I wish I could but nobody is growing almonds in my neck of the woods and if they were I would probably have about a thousand colonies by now. Which reminds me of a commercial guy who visited one of the major treatment free guys who commented that this guys hives were just like his dinks that never made the cut for almond pollination. I often wonder what it is that they get out of beekeeping and it seems to me that it is the illusion of being one of the environmentalists or green tree huggers that are going to save our planet for the ungrateful greedy people like us who steal the honey out of the mouths of starving brood, Sorry about the rant but I flunked out in diplomacy. I wonder about the guys who do this for a living, dont you get tired of preaching to the intellectual giants who know it all.
    Johno

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  3. #142
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
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    2,488

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    ...... when people can't keep hives alive long enuff to get to that point (3rd year for many )......

    the fix is simple.... locals stop bringing in (or saveing swarms from) package bees...
    Haha...
    And then you are kicking me for "abusing my livestock".
    People do not get it when I say - "I can not wait when some of my bees die" AND "I am trying to bend over backwards to save some tiny nucs"..
    You guys are saying - what? Which is it?

    Is it not obvious?
    * Yes, I want those package swarms I caught the last summer to die off as quickly as possible (so I can get some honey off of them).
    BUT, I do not know sometimes the origin of the swarm I caught (usually I have a good idea, but not always; for example, if I caught an escaped Saskatraz queen, I'd rather keep it alive).
    * Yes, at the same time, I will put in lots of time and resources to save a tiny nuc that I think preserves a valuable line going forward
    (worthy drone generation going forward is a part this outlook - but yes, it takes several turn overs; .......yes, we get the idea about the "Grandpa but no Dad", etc, etc)
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #143

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Erik ÷sterlund met Daniel Weaver ( 3000 hives, many many years tf) in Czech Republic but Iīm not telling you what he said.

    Because I asked the administration to delete my account and ban me.

    Now celebrate, my friends, and I do it too. Future is looking good!
    Last edited by 1102009; 11-02-2018 at 10:07 AM.

  5. #144
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
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    2,467

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    I agree with that; the beekeepers around me still donít have any type of sustainable apiary. They all import bees whether nucs or packages from the south. Very disenhartening. A guy who started the same time as I did, going into our 7th year, has never heard of Randy Oliver, Mike Palmer, etc.
    That is sad. I donít treat. I sell bees. My queens die of natural causes, and the bees replace them. I use foundationless in the brood chamber, so they make as many drones as they want. I donít feed. Iíve got fall honey in hives now that I ought to harvest. Smaller hives and fewer hives per yard. We have a lot of feral colonies. Different location, different bees, different way of doing things. It is scalable, but not by me at least in the near term.
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

  6. #145
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Because I asked the administration to delete my account and ban me.
    What administration? Delete you from what? Not Beesource, I hope.
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

  7. #146
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    1,808

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Greg, It was more of in incomplete thought. I was going some were aboutsome people feeling every swarm they catch was feral survivor stock, when the truth is they were likly perpetuation the lines they are against by allowing them to throw drones for another year.

  8. #147

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    What administration? Delete you from what? Not Beesource, I hope.
    I still have access on BS but Iīm not takinging it back this time.
    SP has my e-mail adress and the permission to give it to those interested.
    I need my energy to my project, not to defend myself here. I want to enjoy life with my bees not be abused every time I look into a forum.

    Good luck to all and goodbye.

  9. #148
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    South Waikato New Zealand
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    193

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I have looked forward to your posts and was looking forward to hearing more about your hives that had high mite loads but still appeared to be doing okay/well.
    i wish you all the best but wish you werent leaving.
    Not everybody here is against you......maybe that holiday I spoke of.....a couple of weeks maybe instead of just a few days

  10. #149

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Good luck to all and goodbye.
    It's too bad that you are unable to accept my signature line.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  11. #150
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
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    5,536

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Threads that wander off into the Treatment/Treatment Free arena never seem to end well. I think it's one of the most divisive topics in beekeeping discussions. If one is going to actively participate and defend their position ( from either perspective ) they need to have very thick skin.

    I try to steer clear of TF discussions. It's a lot like politics. Other than brand new beekeepers, most have already made up their mind what they believe, and it seems that no amount of talking or heated discussion really changes anyone's mind about the topic. It creates hard feelings and really goes nowhere, just around in circles.
    To everything there is a season....

  12. #151
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
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    35

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    Threads that wander off into the Treatment/Treatment Free arena never seem to end well. I think it's one of the most divisive topics in beekeeping discussions. If one is going to actively participate and defend their position ( from either perspective ) they need to have very thick skin.

    I try to steer clear of TF discussions. It's a lot like politics. Other than brand new beekeepers, most have already made up their mind what they believe, and it seems that no amount of talking or heated discussion really changes anyone's mind about the topic. It creates hard feelings and really goes nowhere, just around in circles.
    Well said. Funny how couple months/year a thread would pop up and same discussion occur. In the end no one change their mind but every one got upset.

  13. #152
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Mind changes do happen, but not by bashing people on the head. There are quite a few people on the forum who have switched from one camp to the other, in both directions.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #153
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    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    I still have access on BS but Iīm not takinging it back this time.
    SP has my e-mail adress and the permission to give it to those interested.
    I need my energy to my project, not to defend myself here. I want to enjoy life with my bees not be abused every time I look into a forum.

    Good luck to all and goodbye.
    Thank you. A lot folks who you think won’t miss you will. I took a hiatus and came back refreshed. But maybe you won’t, and that’s okay too. We say, “The people that matter don’t care; and the people that care don’t matter.” I hope that maybe you come back after a bit refreshed. There are lots of different ways to keep bees and have fun. Every person has different goals, different bees, and different locations. I can share my experiences, not try to change minds, and let you be you. I’ll miss hearing about your experiences.
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

  15. #154
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    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    It's too bad that you are unable to accept my signature line.
    Emerson also said, “Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.”
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

  16. #155
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    Mar 2013
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    Seattle WA
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I am chiming in really late. As a beekeeper my goal is to raise the healthiest hives of bees I can. However, raising bees treatment free is not raising healthy bees. Parasites have been a part of the human existence since we came into being. Being alive and capable of reproduction and being healthy are two very different things. Humans have lived with tapeworms, flukes, fleas, lice, various round worms, bed bugs and thousands of other bacteria, mold and other parasites. But living with these parasites is not living with good health. How many millions of years and generations have humans lived with these parasites and not become immune or resistant to them? Why are you expecting bees to become resistant/immune in a couple of decades? If your children were plagued with fleas or tapeworms or varroa mites you would NOT even consider the motto "Let the strong survive", you would be taking them to the doctor for treatment. Letting hive after hive suffer and die is inhumane and cruel in my opinion. At best, it is only irresponsible.

  17. #156
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    Jan 2017
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    South Waikato New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I agree that it would be irresponsible to keep bees in such a fashion where they just die from disease or parasites....yet there are many out there who are TF and their bees are doing as well as, if not better, than treated bees......if you believe that they are being honest when they tell us this and I do.

    If my kids ever had tapeworms then something would be terribly wrong and yes I would most definitely take them an myself to the doctor, get it fixed and we would live happily every after with no more worms, but thats not how it is with our bees and something is most definitely wrong here!!! No quick fix from the Doc. Its more a life support scenario.
    Fleas?, nah probably not, but then I have the old fashioned remedies from my Nana for those.

    As you say, letting a hive suffer and die is inhumane and cruel.......
    Cruelty appears to be a relative thing especially when you see what sharks do to each other in the name of reproduction.

    I happen to think that it is a cruelty to pour toxic chemicals into a hive just to keep it alive.
    No life form is healthy if it needs to be medicated just to continue to live, not even our own.
    So your bees are not healthy, just alive.

  18. #157
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    Aug 2014
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    England, UK
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    1,298

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    I happen to think that it is a cruelty to pour toxic chemicals into a hive just to keep it alive.
    No life form is healthy if it needs to be medicated just to continue to live, not even our own.
    So your bees are not healthy, just alive.
    Emotive rhetoric ...

    For Varroa mites try using Vapourised Oxalic Acid - which is non-toxic to bees in the amounts used. The bees are just as healthy after the treatment as they were before it. Not so the mites - as they are the organisms being treated.

    With regard to health, a clear distinction needs to be made between parasitism and disease - they are NOT the same thing, although one can certainly lead to the other.

    We humans are responsible for the situation bees currently find themselves in, and yet many are placing the onus for a solution to the Varroa problem upon the bees themselves. But this problem is of OUR making, and so it ought to be up to US to rectify the situation - and hopefully learn something about our own stupidity and greed in the process.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  19. #158
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    I happen to think that it is a cruelty to pour toxic chemicals into a hive just to keep it alive.
    But you have just done that with your own hive?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  20. #159
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    Jan 2017
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    South Waikato New Zealand
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    You are right.... emotive rhetoric..... and I agree that we are responsible for the situation bees find themselves.

    Having said that, the earlier question posed as a comparison, was in regards to tapeworms in our kids.
    The answer is, Yes!,you take your kids to the doctor, get a med and voila la! no more tapeworms.
    That is not the situation bees face with varroa, except for those who somehow have managed to get their bees to the point where they dont need to treat them with anything.

    That fact that this parasite has persisted for so long for most beeks is worrying to me. That fact that so many have said they tried to go treatment free and failed is too.
    I think there is something wrong with this scenario but, as I am just a newbie I am looking for answers not touting them.
    I am not willing to accept that in order to have healthy bees, I must continuously treat them.
    In order to save my hive this spring, I had to put in Apivar. Just as I would treat my kids with meds if absolutely necessary, I did to my hive. I dont want to have to keep doing that though.

    I understand about the OAV and actually have the kit for this now, but followed the advice of a more experienced beek= live hive so far.
    OAV is also treating. So far, there are no documented adverse side effects, but you are talking about something that you cannot breathe and can cause serious damage to your eyes....yet it is okay to put in with the bees who also have eyes and also have delicate antennae. I find this really odd.


    Gee, I sound like a real hypocrite!!

    What I am trying to do is keep them alive by what ever means possible, using the softest approaches first, while I regress them down to small cell in an attempt to follow examples that have been set by others.
    So far, two years with zero loses. Probably causes alot of eye rolling and sniggers but, you know what? Zero losses is pretty good even if it is only one hive.
    If others can have treatment free bees, then I know if I can get everything right, then so can I.....gotta keep your eye on the mountain(goal) and keep walking towards it.
    Sometimes there are gullies. Sometimes, you have to take a slight detour or go off over a cliff.... But if you never try, you will never even have a chance to get there.

  21. #160
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Gee, I sound like a real hypocrite!!
    Yes you do.


    But it's not really that.


    What's happening is that like probably the majority of us, you started out with high ideals, but little knowledge. You are now transitioning to more knowledge, and working in the real world not the ideal one.

    Most of us been through it, me included.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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