Do I really need to medicate? - Page 15
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  1. #281
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I have had a few very strong hives starve to death in 4 boxes full of bees in late summer here. They were so strong I ignored them and fed some weaker colonies and all of a sudden the strong hive was dead with not a drop of stores, funny the weaker ones I was feeding are still alive and produced maybe 30 or 40 lbs of honey and since I took that I have no alternative but to feed. Sugar here goes for 50 cents a lb honey on the other hand brings $7 per lb so viva le difference.

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  3. #282
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Hi Greg ....... Tim Ives appears to be keeping his bees in a highly privileged setting ... LJ
    I would have to agree.

    This probably is similar to Leo Sharashkin's case, deep in the Missouri Ozarks (another example of idealistic and preferred local setting).

    For sure, we in the US have quite a few locations now with robust feral populations that allow the beekeeping be more normal (normal ~ similar to the pre-mite times).
    The other locations have long to go yet to the same status (some probably never).

    Such local distinctions must be always be identified and put up-front, before getting into any significant talks of T vs. TF.
    Once these are clear to everyone, then we can try to achieve those particular distinctions in our own places too, if only feasible (TF is being the ultimate, long-term goal for everyone, no arguments there I am sure)

    Just saying "do not treat" without qualifications is not sufficient, counter-productive, somewhat limited-minded, and even not entirely honest.
    This is WITHOUT spelling out WHAT must be in-place and WHAT to expect - before you go for the "do not treat" and have some success.

    PS:
    this goes both ways - preaching to treat indiscriminately, without qualifications is the same - "not sufficient, counter-productive, somewhat limited-minded, and even not entirely honest";
    especially in the US with the pending year 2020 with the current availability of information and the material;
    especially when EVERYONE in theory and eventually wants to be completely treatment-free and done with, or so they say (but NOT the other way around);

    so - someone must get started on this already but do it in a fully informed and systematic way.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-20-2019 at 11:41 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #283
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    LOL, wish I'd saved every post from way back where I've been told by superior people that I just need to stop treating.

    And then after I gave it a try (small cell, TF wax foundation, and all the other guff being spouted at the time), but all the bees died, wish I'd saved all the posts from superior people implying they are so much smarter than me, cos I failed and they didn't.

    Kinda wish some of them would come over here and try it, and then let's see how smart they are.

    Well, twice that has actually happened. In one case a successful TF SC beekeeper immigrated to our country, jumped on the local forum and basically told us all NZ beekeepers are idiots. He had been TF for years, and was going to educate us all how it is done. Anybody expressing doubts was attacked viciously, he was condescending, and had an ego almost equal to T. I.
    I'll give it to him he was a hard worker, in one year he had collected 50 swarms and cutouts, and hand made all the sc foundation. I'll respect him for his dedication and hard work. He was at the extreme end of TF, claiming his bees would not get AFB or any other ailment, and started selling his special nucs to the gullible for equivalent of just under US$2,000.00

    That was season one. End of season two he had burned several hives with AFB, and all but a handful of his other hives had perished from mites. The remaining handful were checked by an AFB inspector and found to be terminal, and they died later.

    This whole thing was so crushing for the guy that he had some mental issues, and has not popped his head up on the local forum again.

    Just need a few other of the bloated egos to come over here to show us all how it's done, would be educational. For them.

    All this has confirmed to me that GregV is correct, beekeeping is local. Especially TF beekeeping. And I am just one of the majority, ie, people who live where TF beekeeping doesn't work. That has been proved by at least one overseas "expert".
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 09-20-2019 at 03:37 PM.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #284
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    LOL, wish I'd saved every post from way back where I've been told by superior people that I just need to stop treating..........
    I have to say, I listened to every single Sol Parker podcasts....

    So after 50 episodes or so (IF you really do this) - one might start getting the sense that Sol is changing his tune (it is called evolving)....


    This is how I understood eventually - what that really meant was - there are some resistant feral bees in some areas in Arkansas.
    Sol Parker never mentioned at the time when continuously talking of his success in Arkansas - the true resistance source and foundation of his TF program was the bee population ALREADY living at the location and ALREADY gone through the needed adaptations (my belief).

    I am pretty darn sure he never even thought of that critical part at the time.
    Not as the critical prerequisite of going off-treatments, anyway.
    It all appeared very darn simple - you just don't treat and the things just work out fine.
    On the surface.

    Today things are little different if you listen to the chatter, as I hear it.
    Well, we are all learning, aren't' we?
    I hope we do.


    This being said, we'll see if such a population can be actually created and be sustainable in most average locations.
    I think - yes (but NOT so likely in each and every location).
    Moving along.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-20-2019 at 04:36 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #285

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    I read - either on Randy Oliver's webpage or a link from there- about an interesting experiment, which I will summarize. I may get some details wrong, gut the general idea will be right.

    Take 24 colonies - sister queens, mixed bees.
    Place 12 in single deeps, leave them alone.
    Place 12 in single deeps, add more boxes, manage for maximum production - but don't treat.
    Result: at end of 2 years, the managed hives were all dead. The hives left alone in single deeps 11 out of 12 hives were still alive. The 12th apparently got mite - bombed from one of the managed hives when it died.

    This somewhat explains the survival of wild colonies (or feral colonies, depending on where you live). A single deep is about the size of a typical self selected bee home.

    It also points to some methods for keeping hives alive, which unfortunately are not methods for producing surplus, and probably not for producing increase either.

    I am thinking about going treatment free, but have yet to do so.

    I am in the middle of a small city, and while I think there are some feral bees about, the majority of drones are from wannabeekeepers, who get a couple of hives and after having them die off a few times, give up. But the genetics are mostly package bees from California or Georgia, which aren't likely to have the sort of genetics I would want.

    I'm not able to keep enough hives to dominate the local gene pool, so relying on superior genetics probably won't really be effective.

    Still thinking about it though.

  7. #286
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Interesting experiment A Novice, I hadn't heard about that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I have to say, I listened to every single Sol Parker podcasts....

    So after 50 episodes or so (IF you really do this) ....
    LOL Greg, got to say, you have a lot more stamina than I.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  8. #287
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    LOL Greg, got to say, you have a lot more stamina than I.
    It was fun for a while...
    I don't listen now.
    Need a break.

    But also got me thinking as I was (still am) implementing lots of things for real.
    One move I did (thanks to those podcasts and his TF forum), I got me few feral queens from Arkansas.
    It was a darn good move as looks like so far.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-20-2019 at 04:55 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #288
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Novice View Post

    It also points to some methods for keeping hives alive, which unfortunately are not methods for producing surplus, and probably not for producing increase either.

    Still thinking about it though.
    Not necessarily so.
    Again, do not be afraid to run "throw away" large hives (such hive can be supported by extra 1-2 nucs).

    You have to have the "propagation/expansion" branch.
    And you have to run the "production/throw away" branch.

    The idea of clinging to each and ever hive at all cost is not productive.

    The only bees worth saving at all costs - are your main propagation/expansion queens (say, I have TWO such TF queens now and some of their daughters will be IF they survive the winter).

    I have 16 other laying queens on hand right now - ALL 2019 summer production - these all are not-tested yet or maybe just junk as is (but I will let them fight it out best they can).
    It takes a good winter at least and then we'll see what is really going on again.
    All are the production bees are easily replaceable (especially if you plan for it and just run your operations around this idea).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #289
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I got me few feral queens from Arkansas.
    It was a darn good move as looks like so far.
    That's interesting Greg because there is a lot of discussion around wether TF bees or queens can be moved and still succeed. Solomons operation kinda fell apart when he moved although could have been failure to adjust methods for new area. How long have you had the Arkansas bees, and how are they going in the second and third generation?

    Something I've always thought I would love to do, is import some proven TF queens, such as for example Squarepegs, and see if they could work out over here.
    Unfortunately it is illegal to import, and there are very good reasons for that so i support it, all the same it's always been a little dream.

    I did moot a couple of years ago that we set up a quarantine island for the purpose of importing bees, we have several suitable islands. But, the idea went down like a lead ballon, unfortunately.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  11. #290

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That's interesting Greg because there is a lot of discussion around wether TF bees or queens can be moved and still succeed.

    like a lead ballon
    I have got a report from Central Europe (Google maps Ruovesi-Luxembourg 2126 km) that my queen "does not need any medication"
    This testimony is in fact public and available in Internet.
    http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/hom...d_PJ_2011.html


    P.S. Do you know the TV series "Myth Busters"? They once made a lead balloon and it flied.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 09-20-2019 at 10:45 PM.

  12. #291
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    .
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #292
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ....How long have you had the Arkansas bees, and how are they going in the second and third generation?....

    I got two lines from Arkansas (each made through two winters so far; surviving one of the harshest winters on record too - 2018/2019).
    1)some lineage originating from the Weavers and
    2)some local feral mutts.

    Winter-hardiness was an immediate concern too since in Arkansas it is much milder and winter selection is not as hard.
    But still have both lines - as 2nd/3rd generations now.

    It seems the line #1 is doing better up here after the two winters now.
    A second generation queen is my top resource queen at the moment (her mother died at my hands - accidental pinch I think, while splitting).
    Got 7 daughters from her with some differences; will see how they winter (open mated of course).

    The line #2 seems less winter hardy.
    I barely saved a second generation queen (diarrhea was terrible and almost terminal - but made it; her mother died in very late February - explosive diarrhea.).
    Got 3 daughters from her going, hopefully some better wintering traits mated in.

    I have been trying to cross-pollinate the #1 and #2 by running them from different yards within a mile from each other.

    There are also some Russians from a TF friend are present in the area, hopefully good for mating.

    So will see how the winter 2019/2020 turns.
    Crossing the fingers for the older queens to go through again - really need them for the drone program.

    Hard to predict before hand who makes it and who does not.
    The pre-winter looks are deceptive.

    I got other lines in testing too - at least one winter is down for each.
    Just basic July splitting is the management tool.

    Depending how the winter goes, may bring some new blood in from some TF sources again.
    I heard a friend captured seemingly a feral swarm this summer.
    Fingers crossed there; maybe will get some of those.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-20-2019 at 11:31 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #293
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    .....And I am just one of the majority, ie, people who live where TF beekeeping doesn't work.....
    Here is the thing thou...
    90%-95% beeks around me - all they talk - treat, treat, treat...

    Outside of us, three guys, no one is even trying to do anything to move things forward.
    Good material is available for taking - just ask around.
    I guess finally this spring some bought few Russian packages.
    The Russians are available forever, finally someone brought them in.
    Hope this continues.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #294
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Hopefully you'll be able to help them out Greg.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #295

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    This testimony is in fact public and available in Internet.
    http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/hom...d_PJ_2011.html
    Paul Jungels pedigree 2011:

    – Primorsky Breeder No

    P150(PJ) = imq .09 – B85(JL) hauk B139(JL) : .06 – R84(JL) ins Rmix06(JL) :
    (12) itq .04 – R113(KK) hauk B29pp(JL) : itq .02 – P7(KK) hbg EL134(IK) : etc...
    This colony doesn’t need any varroatreatment.

    imq = imported mature queen
    .09 = born 2009 (in Finland, posted to Luxembourg in July)
    (JL) = Juhani Lunden, these initials are marked according to who is the breeder who has done the evaluation of that particular queen

  17. #296
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That's interesting Greg because there is a lot of discussion around wether TF bees or queens can be moved and still succeed.
    I was in a talk at Apimondia last week where this exact subject was addressed. Genetic analysis of a population of 'local surviving' bees as compared to 'run of the mill migratory stock'. The presenter brought forward an interesting conclusion. When looking at the genetics, there was absolutely no difference comparing the local survivors to the commercial migratory stock. OTOH, when comparing genetics of the mites in those colonies, big difference.

    Final conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....

    I dont remember which local population they were comparing to, and I dont have my notes from the conference handy to try look it up right now.

  18. #297

    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    I was in a talk at Apimondia last week where this exact subject was addressed. Genetic analysis of a population of 'local surviving' bees as compared to 'run of the mill migratory stock'. The presenter brought forward an interesting conclusion. When looking at the genetics, there was absolutely no difference comparing the local survivors to the commercial migratory stock. OTOH, when comparing genetics of the mites in those colonies, big difference.

    Final conclusion, it's not the bees, it's the mites that are different....

    I dont remember which local population they were comparing to, and I dont have my notes from the conference handy to try look it up right now.
    Resistance of Primorsky bees was discovered in Far East Russia, then confirmed in US, then confirmed in Central Europe, then Finland...

    Bee genetics, that is the answer.

  19. #298
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Highly privileged setting out in the middle of Corn/ Bean fields

    Greg, pull up the thread 3 deeps pros or con. You'll see why I'm hammering on OT. Then Johno thought he should get his 2cents in of what he doesn't know about bees. Which I'll keep busting his bubble too.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  20. #299
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Wait what? Total nonsense. If this beekeeper was truly TF, he would know how to deal with AFB, without treating or Burning the colony.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

  21. #300
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    Default Re: Do I really need to medicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Highly privileged setting out in the middle of Corn/ Bean fields

    Greg, pull up the thread 3 deeps pros or con. You'll see why I'm hammering on OT. Then Johno thought he should get his 2cents in of what he doesn't know about bees. Which I'll keep busting his bubble too.
    It is not the corn/soy field that define the special location.
    It is the presence of already naturally adapted bees - that what defines the special location.

    Jason Bruns (a swarm chaser from Indiana) tells very well how many feral bees are actually present in the corn/soy Indiana back country.
    I believe him.

    Tim, I will let you and OT to hash out your differences.
    I am out of it.

    I do envy you for your special bees.
    Consider selling queens?
    You should.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-21-2019 at 11:25 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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