long deep hive vs. traditional lang
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  1. #1
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    Default long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    I was wondering which configuration produces better honey yields and which hive type winters better?
    thanks

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    The traditional became the tradition because it works. The long favors the keeper, not the bee.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    I keep both traditional Langstroth hives and top bar hives. From what I have seen at my house, top bar hives usually have much smaller populations and produce less honey. I am not sure if the reason has to do with the size of the combs or the layout of the hive. In my case, it does not matter. I don't keep hives for honey sales. I absolutely love the top bar hives and keep them for pure enjoyment. Overwintering survival is similar if you can keep the mites in check.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Do they produce less honey because they are constantly replacing the comb?

  6. #5
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    The traditional became the tradition because it works.
    Contentious ? I'd say what became the 'tradition' did so due to aggressive marketing, and once that market became established, it has remained so ... because indeed, it does work. But then, so do other designs of hive.

    For example - take a look at a country where the Langstroth design (or a derivative of it) has never been accepted - Spain - where the Layens Hive (a Deep Long Hive) still to this day remains the hive of choice, and where honey yield remains impressive, and an important consideration. I have read articles (but cannot verify their veracity) that the Spanish 'authorities' have been trying to persuade it's beekeepers to change over to Langs for some time now, but thus far without success.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  7. #6
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Do they produce less honey because they are constantly replacing the comb?
    When you look at a free hanging hive, such as under an eve or a swarm that stayed on a branch, long seems to be favored over wide. I have relatively cold temps, I suspect a hot climate would be a little different. A long split into two queens probably would work better, but I've never tried that.

    You have to push the worked combs out from the center and then get them to use the outer comb. Great on your back though.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by mischief View Post
    Do they produce less honey because they are constantly replacing the comb?
    I do not believe so. Most of my supers are foundationless and I primarily do crush and strain rather than extraction. My bees have to produce the wax in both cases. I believe, only from observation, that the smaller populations of the top bar hives naturally gives less honey since there are fewer workers. I have yet to try a long Lang but will be doing one this year. I am excited to see how well it will work.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    The traditional became the tradition because it works. The long favors the keeper, not the bee.
    In case of "traditional Lang" commercial hive in US - commercial propaganda that took over the market (for standardization purposes of the large scale equipment building)..
    In case of "traditional Dadant" commercial hive in East Europe - government propaganda that forced everyone to use Dadants (same - for standardization purposes of the large scale equipment building).

    In both cases, there were already much older and the real traditional designs that worked just as well or better and provided options fit for various settings.
    Typical case - you harvest the honey once per year and don't look at your bees otherwise - try this with so called "traditional Lang".

    You don't just look for honey harvest per hive (in isolation from anything else around).

    You look for honey harvest per expended time/money/ecological impact - this is much more honest and correct way to look at things.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    The one hive that really favors the bees for more honey production, high bee populations, and overwintering is the Modified Square Jumbo Dadant ("MSJD") beehive. If using 3/4" lumber (usually called 1 inch), the outside dimensions are 19-7/8" x 19-7/8" x 11-5/8" deep, the inside dimensions are 18-3/8" x 18-3/8" x 11-5/8". There is a partition in the center. This is because it starts out in Spring as a 2-queen system. The honey boxes are usually the 5-11/16" "shallow" type because they are heavy - they hold 12 combs.

    I'm using 1.240 inch wide brood frames (11-1/4" deep). 14 of these "deep and narrow" frames fit inside an MSJD brood box. I'm ordering 5.1 mm cell size wax foundation for the brood boxes. The advantage is that with narrower frames and smaller cell size, the bees population comes up a few weeks earlier in the Spring, taking more full advantage of the main Spring nectar flow. On top of that, a 2-queen system has bees competing to fill up the honey boxes at a faster rate than if they were separate colonies. The additional depth of the frames allows the queens to lay a full brood pattern earlier in the season and for longer in the season.

    We separate the 2-queen system back into individual 1-queen colonies when they reach 4 to 4-1/2 frames of brood (whichever colony gets there first). We also place the honey frames at 90 degrees to the brood frames so that the bees have full access to any honey frame they wish. We flip the honey boxes ("endo", not vertically) 180 degrees so that the 2 colonies fill them up evenly. I usually build 3 or 4 honey boxes per brood box.

    The advantages of these are many more than I have enumerated here. Search old threads by Fusion_power, where he discusses various hive designs, their plusses and minuses. I am completely sold on the advantages of this hive design and management system, so much that I am rebuilding my apiary with this design - not exclusively - I do have to sell bees to others with the "standard" equipment. It's just that this is an inconvenience to my bees and I. Standard equipment does work, just nowhere near as well as these larger hives.

    Long hives are at a distinct disadvantage for overwintering temperate zone bees in colder climates. Vertical stacking hives work much better, especially with a fondant board, a quilt box, and foam insulation around them. Long hives would require very tough bees, and would never populate up at the same rates come Spring time.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    You don't just look for honey harvest per hive (in isolation from anything else around).

    You look for honey harvest per expended time/money/ecological impact - this is much more honest and correct way to look at things.
    I very much agree with you regarding this obsession of 'bigger/more is better', when yield per (estimated) acre or per yard would be a far more useful criterion, imo, - followed very quickly by expended beekeeper time and effort.

    A philosophy of breeding queens towards the average, rather than 'the best' (undefined), would also seem more intuitively sensible.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  12. #11
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    ....Long hives are at a distinct disadvantage for overwintering temperate zone bees in colder climates..
    As it has been pointed out many time over - long hive does not assume a shallow hive (a typical long Lang or a typical TB is a shallow hive).

    In fact, a true traditional long hive (deep, trough-style hives favored by late 19th/early 20th century European homesteaders) provides superior wintering accommodations to even a deep, square Dadant.
    Technically a deep Dadant is not even a true deep hive (just one of deeper hives and still suited for large-scale, standardized operators).
    True deep hives are those starting with Layens and deeper.
    Attached few pics:
    HiveOfLewicki02.jpg
    HiveOfLewicki01.jpg
    NucsInHorizontalHive.jpg
    ukrainskiy-uley-02.jpg

    Another fact is that large scale operators even dislike the traditional, deep long hives in Eastern Europe exactly because they develop TOO fast and start producing swarms too early (a big hassle when you are a commercial keeper specializing in honey). From what I observe, however, those in business of selling nucs/queens do like the deep long hives exactly for the same reasons - good wintering of small units/wintering of small units in a single hive, and strong early development.

    LJ and myself provided lots of examples and references in this regard by now on this forum.
    Those interested can easily find relevant postings.
    Last edited by GregV; 10-04-2018 at 09:05 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I very much agree with you regarding this obsession of 'bigger/more is better', when yield per (estimated) acre or per yard would be a far more useful criterion, imo, - followed very quickly by expended beekeeper time and effort.

    A philosophy of breeding queens towards the average, rather than 'the best' (undefined), would also seem more intuitively sensible.
    LJ
    Right.
    I have a hard time getting across the point that you can very well get those 100 pounds of honey not from one hive but from 5 hives (while - importantly- having much better redundancy and resiliency of your beekeeping operation as you have 5 queens working for you, not just one - this ultimately means saving your money vs. spending your money to keep buying replacement bees).

    I have been told - this is more work/equipment.
    Well, marginally - maybe, but possible optimizations are endless.
    In fact, marginally speaking, keeping of only a single hive is the most expensive beekeeping operation per unit one can find anywhere.

    Obviously, this is not a prescription for large-scale operators, but for small-scale homesteaders and hobbyists - very much a good prescription to look into.

    And of course, it was Darwin yet who showed that average performers who can operate in wide variety of conditions will ultimately survive and move forward.
    Superior performers specialized perform only in narrow set of conditions will ultimately die off as this is not a norm (but rather an exception).
    Superior performers that can perform in a wide variety of conditions do not exist (because any superior performance eventually develops into a specialization - a bad thing in a long run).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Right.
    I have a hard time getting across the point that you can very well get those 100 pounds of honey not from one hive but from 5 hives (while - importantly- having much better redundancy and resiliency of your beekeeping operation as you have 5 queens working for you, not just one - this ultimately means saving your money vs. spending your money to keep buying replacement bees).

    I have been told - this is more work/equipment.
    Well, marginally - maybe, but possible optimizations are endless.
    In fact, marginally speaking, keeping of only a single hive is the most expensive beekeeping operation per unit one can find anywhere.

    Obviously, this is not a prescription for large-scale operators, but for small-scale homesteaders and hobbyists - very much a good prescription to look into.

    And of course, it was Darwin yet who showed that average performers who can operate in wide variety of conditions will ultimately survive and move forward.
    Superior performers specialized perform only in narrow set of conditions will ultimately die off as this is not a norm (but rather an exception).
    Superior performers that can perform in a wide variety of conditions do not exist (because any superior performance eventually develops into a specialization - a bad thing in a long run).

    Does your hive have super frames like in eastern european ones? If not how do you extract such big frames? In addition, I think it is difficult to interchange frames between hives for splitting/ combining purposes.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by dpula2 View Post
    Does your hive have super frames like in eastern european ones? If not how do you extract such big frames? In addition, I think it is difficult to interchange frames between hives for splitting/ combining purposes.
    I think smaller frame favors being able to extract small quantities of early honey vs. large frame although good for wintering only lets you to extract at the end of the season.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by dpula2 View Post
    I think smaller frame favors being able to extract small quantities of early honey vs. large frame although good for wintering only lets you to extract at the end of the season.
    Well, I have posted lots of pictures and descriptions of what I do.
    Just as well do a search.

    The latest versions I built just this past September combine together a true deep brood nest and standard medium Lang supers.
    This particular set up should address both early honey and later honey crops (if you want them).
    Indeed, I prefer late honey/brood frame honey anyway (golden rod being our favorite).
    I don't even own an extractor, but just cull old/bad brood combs and do C/S - better, real honey and real perga for family/friends, anyway.
    We don't sell honey for money.

    I also posted already, but here:
    20180924_183829.jpg
    20180924_190606.jpg
    20180922_173516.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Well, I have posted lots of pictures and descriptions of what I do.
    Just as well do a search.

    The latest versions I built just this past September combine together a true deep brood nest and standard medium Lang supers.
    This particular set up should address both early honey and later honey crops (if you want them).
    Indeed, I prefer late honey/brood frame honey anyway (golden rod being our favorite).

    I also posted already, but here:
    20180924_183829.jpg
    20180924_190606.jpg
    20180922_173516.jpg
    Is this Ukrainian style hive where super frames are at 90 degree angle to brood frame? How wide is your brood frame?

  18. #17
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by dpula2 View Post
    Does your hive have super frames like in eastern european ones? If not how do you extract such big frames? In addition, I think it is difficult to interchange frames between hives for splitting/ combining purposes.
    Eastern Euro traditional hives never had supers (this was by those early designs).
    The modern versions do incorporate supers.
    I have and use supers in my large hives, just because why not?

    Speaking of incompatibilities, again, I have shown many times over my frames - those are tired together Lang medium frames and if needs be they go back into the Lang hives just fine.
    When, I hope, I will have enough bees to sell, I should have no compatibility problem (already thought about it an designed this in).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by dpula2 View Post
    Is this Ukrainian style hive where super frames are at 90 degree angle to brood frame? How wide is your brood frame?
    Please just search.
    I already provided lots of material right on this forum.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #19
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    OK, here is a quick link for you :
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...93#post1669793
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: long deep hive vs. traditional lang

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I just wonder if I put that deep lang vertically (only one of them) so later for ease of honey extraction, will the bee like it? ( meaning will there be enough distance side to side)

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