Treating mites with OA dripped menthod
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  1. #1
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    Default Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    I live in northern Illinois and I'm looking to treat mites using the OA dripped menthod and my question is how many treatmentso I do? I've got how to mix and how to dripped info, I'm looking for info on how many times and for how long do I do it?

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    I did 5 X 5. Five treatments every 5 days to capture the full brood cycle. The schedules you will see most often are 3 X 7, 4 X 4 or 5 X 5. This treatment method is practiced widely in Europe. I like it because it's inexpensive, doesn't need much specialized equipment, and not weather dependent. Randy Oliver (Scientific Beekeeping) has lots of great info about it.
    Last edited by LAlldredge; 10-01-2018 at 06:17 PM.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    OA Dribble is only done once, so is only used during a broodless window.. Bees ingest OA when they clean the syrup OA mix off.

    Also for OA dribble to get near same efficacy as OA vapor, one needs to split double box. Dribble seams of bees in lower brood and reinstall top brood. Then dribble seams in top brood.

    One is breaking propolis between supers late in the season and need good temps to be separating brood boxes. Hence, I much prefer OA vapor.
    Zone 3b. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    Welcome to Beesource, honeybeemine!


    >> ... using the OA dripped method

    This is more commonly called the "dribble method". And here is a Randy Oliver page to start you off:
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-dribble-tips/
    There is a lot of "dribble" material on Randy's website, and I advise that you read more of it before you proceed.

    I would be very cautious about applying multiple dribble applications in a short period of time. The best option is to apply dribble when there is no brood, and then only one application would be appropriate, as there would be no varroa protected by capped brood cells, (since there are no capped brood cells).
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    Mgolden I am of the opion that there is a lot of wrong information in you post, in fact most of it. do you have any links ?

    In other parts of the world OAD is commonly used 8 or so times a year (but yes you don't want to hit winter bees 2x)

    "A commercial apiary composed by 54 colonies of a re-gional ecotype of A. mellifera located at Federal (3057'4.42"S 5847'55.78"W: Entre Rios province, Ar-gentina) was selected as biological model for the assays. In this apiary, the OA was topically applied as the sole option for Varroa control during eight consecutive years (2000-2008). Thus, this V. destructor population was considered as the „focal‟ population in our study. An average of eight treatment applications ( one) per year was made".


    (PDF) The susceptibility of Varroa destructor against oxalic acid: A study case. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_A_study_case [accessed Oct 01 2018].

    Varroa med (EU premixed OAD) is recommended/aproved for up to 8 doses a year https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2017-08-31.pdf


    OAD is spread by bee to bee contact and is rapidly distributed threw out the hive, there is no need to split the dose between both boxes, just follow the directions

    "Trophallactic interactions and fumigation did not significantly influence the distribution of OA. Bee-to-bee contact was the primary route for OA distribution." Aliano, Ellis 2008

    "The distribution of OAD was shown by macroCT. The results of the roentgenoscopy showed high density values for the individual bees in the test, much higher than in the control measurement. A good distribution was already achieved after 10 min; this could be documented in the central and boundary areas of the combs. Lower density values in the central comb areas compared to the boundary regions obtained after thirty minutes reflected the movement of the bees. After thirty minutes the density was generally lower, which led us to the assumption that OAD was now also spread to the material, e.g., the wall of the hive. Bees have constant contact with the hive material; therefore, OAD can be distributed again onto the bees, maintaining a long-term contact with the acid. OAD on hive material can be found even several months after application [18]. The macroCT analysis demonstrated a rapid and consistent distribution of OAD involving a reduction of the individual dosage over time. Even after 14 days, the density of the bees was still significantly higher than prior to treatment, indicating a potential efficacy of at least up to 14 days. The results from the field trials, where the maximum efficacy against mites was reached ten days after treatment, support this assumption" Rademacher etal 2017

    lasty... the recommended treatment range for OAD is lower then OAV
    Last edited by msl; 10-01-2018 at 03:06 PM.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    Msl, please pass on the information where you found persons doing 8 OAD treatments a year. In the stuff you just quoted from Argentina they treated their colonies for 8 years with treatments plus or minus once a year.
    Johno

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    as I quated the 1st time
    An average of eight treatment applications ( one) per year was made
    I don't know what more you want... the link to the study was posted and so was the recommended treatments per year for varroamed OAD (1 to 3x spring, 3-5x summer/fall, 1x winter)
    in the study page 3 ,table 1, clearly out lines the treatment schedule and mite knock down for dates
    8/23/06
    8/30/06
    1/24/07
    1/31/07
    4/15/07
    4/22/07
    4/29/07
    6/15/07


    Page 4 says
    "Here, we have compared the susceptibility of a Varroa population ex-posed to 64 consecutive treatments with OA („focal‟ mite population) versus the susceptibility of a Varroa popula-tion never exposed to it („nave‟ mite population) in order to evaluate if resistance episodes to the OA happened. "
    8 years, 8 treatments a year= 64

    clearly at least in this climate given in had been SOP for 8 years, the commercial beekeeper didn't see a issue using OAD in a course of 2-3 treatments, and using it far more then once a year

    once you start digging in to the study's, you see a coarse of treatments being very common.. is it the best for the bees, no, but is not a hive killer either
    "Oxalic acid field trails for the control of varroosis (Varroa destructor) were carried out in an apiary located on the Mt. Imittos (Attica, Greece). The colonies received four successive applications (approximately one every 16 days) with 4.2% oxalic acid (OA) and 60% sugar solution by trickling method with two alternative types of syringes (an automatic self-filling dosing and a single-use) from the broodright to broodless period. The results indicate that the first three applications (from 6th October to 25th November-broodright period) resulted in 65.3% cumulative mite mortality, while only the last application (after the 26th November-broodless period) resulted in 77.3% mite mortality. Very low outern temperatures reduce to the minimum the bee movability, which may result into a slower development of the OA efficacy. No poor colony growth or queen loss were observed even if the bee colonies were received the four successive OA applications with the last one taken place at a very low outern temperature (6.2 degrees C). The trickling method using an automatic-filling syringe seems to be a very quick way for applying oxalic acid in large apiaries (approximately 150hives/h). "

    (PDF) Efficacy of repeated trickle applications of oxalic acid in syrup for varroosis control in Apis mellifera: Influence of meteorological conditions and presence of brood. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...sence_of_brood [accessed Oct 01 2018].

    "Nosema ceranae is a honey bee pathogen parasitizing the ventricular epithelium and potentially causing colonydeath. The effect of 0.25 M oxalic acid solution administered to the bees in the form of sugar syrup was deter-mined in laboratory and field trials. The spore numbers in an 8-day laboratory experiment were significantlylower when AO was administered (treated: 11.86 0.94 s.e. 10^6; untreated: 30.64 0.31 s.e. x 10^6).When administered in autumn to free flying colonies twice, 3 weeks apart, the infection prevalence decreasedin young (relative reduction of 53.8% 6.5 s.e.) and old bees (relative reduction of 44.4% 6.0 s.e.). Meanwhileincreased prevalence in all the controls was detected (young and old bees: relative increase of 45.7% 22.8 s.e.and 10.2% 5.9 s.e., respectively). While all the treated colonies overwintered correctly, the untreated ones didnot (3 out of 5 were dead"

    (PDF) Effect of oxalic acid on Nosema ceranae infection. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...anae_infection [accessed Oct 01 2018].
    Last edited by msl; 10-01-2018 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    Msl your page 4 test of 64 treatments to 8 colonies was to determine if mites would become resistant to OA and what is more they do not specify dribble they specify spray and sublimation. This Varro med stuff we will just wait and see, Randy Oliver already states that he gets better efficacy with syrup and OA than with Varro med. besides I want to see you do your dribble on my 3 box colonies in 30 seconds.
    Johno

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    Msl;
    The collateral effect on nosema is interesting. What do you suppose was the basis for the cautions that were prevalent not so many years ago regarding apparent damage to winter bees from multiple drizzles with OA? Supposedly, at that time, considered related to damage to the malphigian tubes; our equivalent of kidneys. Was that information ill founded?

    Perhaps in truly field conditions the bees do not ingest a significant amount compared to an experiment where bees were forced by necessity to ingest such a solution or starve. I am not suggesting that such was the case but similar discrediting conditions have become part of "common knowledge" in many cases. Are the implications of the linked experiments corroborated by other controlled experiments?

    I just took it for granted that that caution about OA in sugar syrup drizzle was factual and since OA vaporization was easier for me, I never looked back.
    Frank

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    The best way to apply OA for mite control and for the bees and ease of application is vaporizing.

    If you don't dribble seams of bees in both boxes then efficacy is around 60%. This is information from our provincial apiarist, Dr Medhat Nasr, who did field studies. It's beyond me why anyone would be happy with efficacy in the 60% range. Think I saw 60-80% in your quote. Splitting boxes in colder temps along with the labor is equally questionable. You question yourself the effect of bees ingesting OA multiple times.

    Why not get 90% plus efficacy with a single easily applied dose of OAV? Many commercial beekeepers in Canada are now using a single does of OAV, in the late fall, when hives are broodless in our climate for a clean up treatment. It is low cost, easy to apply(less than a minute per hive), easy on the bees, and greater than 90% efficacy. From Ian's blog, note that an early fall mite treatment regime was not required because he used a single late fall treat of OAV, last fall and Apivar this spring. This is a very significant labor savings and cost saving.

    I did an early fall OAV treatment last fall( four treatment 5 days apart), a single late fall OAV and spring Apivar. The three day drop, after an OAV in August this year,
    was less than 20 mites.

    Nosema is not a problem for me, however if OA in some form is shown to help, I will take note. However, OAV will be part of my treatment regime.

    No further replies from me on this thread. By the way, I find your tone on the offensive side.
    Zone 3b. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Treating mites with OA dripped menthod

    What do you suppose was the basis for the cautions that were prevalent not so many years ago regarding apparent damage to winter bees from multiple drizzles with OA
    No were am I suggesting you should treat winter bees more then once (nor should you need to) as I said in post #5 " (but yes you don't want to hit winter bees 2x)" and you will note Varromed only recomends one tx for witer bees as well, the issue is people extend that warning to short lived summer bees and drop in to a OMG if you OAD more then once a year you will kill you hives state of mind, witch is clearly not the case
    Msl your page 4 test of 64 treatments to 8 colonies was to determine if mites would become resistant to OA
    my understanding is it was a commercial apiary under standard management for that beekeeper that was used for the study, not a test group
    "For this study, we have selected a commercial apiary where a high frequency of treatments with oxalic acid was exerted during 8 consecutive years.'
    "A commercial apiary composed by 54 colonies of a re-gional ecotype of A. mellifera located at Federal (3057'4.42"S 5847'55.78"W: Entre Rios province, Ar-gentina) was selected as biological model for the assays. In this apiary, the OA was topically applied as the sole option for Varroa control during eight consecutive years (2000-2008). Thus, this V. destructor population was considered as the „focal‟ population in our study. An average of eight treatment applications ( one) per year was made. The treatment solution was composed of 4% (w/v) oxalic acid (64 g oxalic acid dehydrate, 500 g sugar, and distilled water to 1000 mL). The average dosage was 50 mL per hive (5 mL per comb covered by bees) applied on the top of each frame. According to the beekeeper‟s personal observation, the colonies managed by applying only OA treatments must be maintained with a mite infestation level below than 2% to avoid colony weakness and honey production reduction."

    (PDF) The susceptibility of Varroa destructor against oxalic acid: A study case. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_A_study_case [accessed Oct 02 2018].
    Randy Oliver already states that he gets better efficacy with syrup and OA than with Varro med
    thier documentation suggests that as well, as well as higher bee mortality then standard OAD

    This is information from our provincial apiarist, Dr Medhat Nasr
    I am familiar with Nair's work on OAV and formic, I can find no studies form him on OAD (If you recall I did ask for links so I may learn more). Maby it a climate/time of year thing for Can, but there are a mountain of studys that suggest that the standard appulation method leads to high efecncinty, if it didn't OAD would have been abandoned long ago.

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