Treatment Free in Finland - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    This situation changes when after couple weeks when number of adult bees is getting higher. I used to have a rule of thumb: three weeks after willow blooming start there is a need to put first supers to the best hives. With TF bees this has changed: it takes six weeks. Two things come to this: hives are smaller and bees take out infested brood, which slows down development.
    Juhani:

    These are interesting and helpful observations you have made. I appreciate your detailed feedback. I hope to develop similar seasonal patterns here in my locale to evaluate between seasons and between colonies.

    Thank you again for taking the time to outline your observations. I do appreciate it.

    Have a great week.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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  3. #62

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    The real issues why this is not known/ignored:
    - weather usually prevents heavy foraging of maples and willows anyway
    - bee colonies are usually too weak to take advantage of these early flows
    - beekeepers do not recognize maple and willow as a target crops (and don't prepare to harvest them specifically - setting up early-forager units)
    - and the weather, just to repeat, will usually cancel out the best possible preparations anyway
    Which sums up to: bad beekeeping.

  4. #63
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Which sums up to: bad beekeeping.
    How exactly bad weather is equal to bad beekeeping?
    I would not generalize.

    One can exert a lot of effort to prepare for the maple/willow flow and still be snowed in.
    It is a very risky business - early flows as it requires very early build-up - not always a good idea in cold regions (where the willow is most plentiful).

    Our last snow (so far) was on Saturday, April 27th.
    Sunday was partly sunny and +10C - snow melted - not exactly good day either for bee foraging.
    Monday through Thursday - cold rain.

    Willow potential is largely wasted; Maple potential was also largely wasted; Dandelion is blooming several days now - wasted so far due to the weather.

    I don't care how good a beekeeper you are - you can only pray so much for good weather.
    Last edited by GregV; 04-29-2019 at 09:46 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #64

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    One problem with willow crop is that usually there is quite a lot of winter sugar (we feed about 20-30 liters of sugar solution, in order to keep hives alive) still left on the frames, usually either brood or winter sugar. Those frames cannot be extracted. But I don´t say it isn´t possible, if you put supers on strong hives. After warm weather there usually is cold weather and then all stores, willow crop included, are again needed. All these things here and there end up that I personally do not know any beekeeper who has extracted willow honey in Finland. Ever.

  6. #65
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Here is the video report of willow flow, dated April 24th.
    His supers are full, but not yet capped:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2CfUVKjCeY
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #66

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Yesterday small signs of robbery, willow is over.

    Weather forecast predicts max 0 C (32 F) and freezing night temperatures for Friday.

    2019-04-30.jpg

  8. #67

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    While we might get some more snow in Friday, here is what is happening in Germany, my new blog writing:

    https://naturebees.wordpress.com/201...are-you-ready/

  9. #68
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    Mar 2015
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    Kamloops, BC, Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    That is interesting. The mite threshold of 3 percent is so low considering fall counts with many tf bees in the 15% range. I suspect these bees are resilient to viruses and do not need to control mites to the same extent. I have a feeling that viruses are going to be a far bigger part of the picture and mites will eventually be an afterthought. How is that for an outrageous statement.

    That said, I will be doing early fall brood counts for all my hives this year. I won't have a hard threshold, but will certainly requeen in spring all those with much higher counts than their peers. I hope to shift the curve to the left. I will not raise a queen from 2 year or more survivors unless they have a fall brood count of less than 10 percent even if strong. Then set a tighter criteria as time goes on. I'm thinking 5 percent going into their 2nd winter as a reasonable long term goal.

  10. #69

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    All people seem to agree with the virus theory and a lot of studies seem to point into that direction. But what's with the new study, that showed that varroa doesn't feed on the hemolymph but on the fat body of the bees. Doesn't that destroy the varroa spreads viruses theory? Or do viruses really thrive in bees' fat bodies?

    https://entomologytoday.org/2019/02/...et-discovered/

  11. #70
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    Rosebud Missouri
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Bernhard
    I was under the impression that the fat body was the immune system of the bee. Kinda makes sense that if the immune system is attacked that the virus might have better luck in being spread.

    I do not claim to know anything.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  12. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I have had thoughts about my location. In the old days, when I treated, I got max. 150 kg honey from my home yard, I considered it so poor that I usually kept only 4 hives on it. In comparison I usually had 6 hives on my other yards and I could get 400 kg or more from one place.
    Now I have had up to 25 normal hives and 25 small hives on my home yard. Maybe there is simply lack of pollen. Comparing this home yard to my best places is like comaparing IPM beekeepers to TF beekeepers, it cannot be done.
    +1 Every yard is different. Could be the minerals in the ground getting into all the plants. could be natural chemicals in the water. over lapping pollen or nectar flows. there is a myriad of things having an effect. I would recommend trying 4 or 5 yards with 4-6 hives of similar size, then determine where you want to setup. Then,, the natural DCA, Like where Heimo is if he has been there since 2001 their likely was swarms lost. IF they made it in the trees some where, the local population is likely greater than his hives. Take his hive to Florida and in 5 years would it still behave the same? It's location, location, location. Then local drone population.
    GG

  13. #72

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    toukokuun lumipyry.jpg

    They promised a snow storm, pah! Nothing much, I have seen much more new snow in May, but some locations in Finland made new records: never has the max temperature of the May been so low.

  14. #73

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    19th of April I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Cleansing flights are over and willow is already in full bloom!
    Willow started somewhere one week before full bloom, don´t have a note, that would make it 13th of April. It is now six weeks from that, and time to put third boxes to the best ones. Weather is however now very cold(+10 C) and rainy, so I´ll wait couple days. TF bees need double time for their development compared to my old stock.

    Bees not flying and there is some evidence on the landing board what is happening inside:
    DSC04518.jpg
    larvae pulled out, even some almost hatching bees and drones pulled out

  15. #74

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Insemination of the second round queens is in the work list.

    Queen deliveries to Europe have started.

    As planned I have taken bees to several yards outside our home.

    Record heat wave, temperatures over 30 C. In one weak Apidea frames melted, it was on a sandy building wall which has been the place for them. Usually they get advantage of it...

  16. #75

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    I would recommend trying 4 or 5 yards with 4-6 hives of similar size, then determine where you want to setup.
    That is pretty close what I did: 7 yards, mostly 4 hives per yard.

    I made updates to my diary http://buckfast.fi/publications/writings-presentations/
    and a new blog writing naturebees.wordpress.com

    Summary of 2019
    40kg honey/ hive
    10 nucs
    80 inseminated queens
    first queens ever to Sweden (very strict import laws)

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Summary of 2019
    Not to mention being a contributor to several books: https://naturebees.wordpress.com/

    I can also appreciate the closing statement on your web diary: Many beekeepers have asked about my work and some of them have called this scientific breeding effort. Noup, I’m only a very stubborn beekeeper, who has decided to stop treatments. That’s all.

    I am glad to hear that your breeding program continues to thrive and that you now have a new market opening up for you.

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    excellent report juhani. many thanks for the update.

    congrats on the imports to sweden.

    are your bees going to be cross-bred with the elgons there?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #78

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    are your bees going to be cross-bred with the elgons there?
    I don´t know but they seemed to be more interested in line breeding. What exactly they meant by it I don´t know.

    "There are no everlasting lines" said Ulf Gröhn, THE Great man in Swedish buckfast breeding.

  20. #79

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Thanks to both of you SP and Litsinger!
    Everything is not shining and well, some problems with the Mini-Plus nucs: Queen rearing had a late start, because the drone frames were put in late (end of May, I wanted to ensure that they make them well, which they did). Then I assumed all inseminated queens to lay well after 10 days ( which they did not) and made the timetables and amount of cells of the second round accordingly. These facts combined forced me to even up the brood from nucs where queens were laying well to the nucs were queens were not laying at all (after 10 days). This has created a situation that most of the Mini-Plus nucs are fairly week now. They are even but weaker than normally. Hopefully it will be a good end of September so they have time to catch up.

    P.S. The Ulf Gröhn quotation was from a situation in Sweden in the 1970s´when imports from Buckfast Abbey were done every now and then. The imported queens had hive numbers from Brother Adams hives, 424, 358 etc. When beekeepers got daughters of these and found them excellent (compared to their old bees) they started to speak of "424" and "358". Some of these queens sort of became legends. Year after year beekeepers kept up an illusion that they still had the same lines, and continued speaking of them with the original hive numbers, as if it would be possible to keep such line living for ever. This misunderstanding Ulf Gröhn wanted to straighten up.
    We met couple of times when he was speaking in Finland. Great man and breeder.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 09-07-2019 at 11:52 AM.

  21. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Everything is not shining and well, some problems with the Mini-Plus nucs:

    ...

    Some of these queens sort of became legends.
    Juhani:

    I am both impressed and humbled by the amount of knowledge and skill that one must have to be a consistently good queen breeder. It requires a keen understanding of so many variables, both genetic and practical- so I think it speaks volumes towards your skill that there are people in your region who look to you as their trusted source for the genetic base of their apiary. This is to your credit.

    I enjoyed reading your story about legendary queens- it reminded me of how you see this tension in queen breeding where one wants to fix traits by line-breeding while also trying to retain vigor by out-crossing. As they say, the devil's in the details.

    I sincerely hope your breeding program becomes the stuff of legends.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

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