Treatment Free in Finland - Page 2
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  1. #21

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    that's interesting juhani. about how many hives did you sample like that in 2009 and 2017?
    I could not find the exact numbers any more, but I recall it was something between 500 and 1000, in both years.

    EDIT:
    quote from my diary 22.12.2017

    "These figures are no science. But to get them, it took me several hours, counting and washing over 2000 bees. What are these figures to me? Just one little proof that I maybe, just maybe, haven´t fooled myself during these years."

    My memory is failing.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    i think the information is meaningful, and as you said it tends to corroborate your other measurements.

    are you still working with that many hives juhani?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #23

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    are you still working with that many hives juhani?
    what do you mean that many?
    I have 14 normal size, plus 24 nucs

    EDIT:
    you asked hive numbers: 2017 they were pretty much the same, 2009 much more, somewhere around 100, but how many hives were in the sample, I don´t remember, that was just one experiment I never thought I would repeat it. But seems it might be an idea to do properly.

    Yesterday(and today) I just picked all bees I found lying in the snow
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 12-28-2018 at 10:20 AM.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    yes, i was wondering about how many hives you are working with these days. thank you for the replies.

    i have tried washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts i've had so far this winter i washed about 2% and 4.7% respectively.

    like you i'm not sure what these numbers mean exactly, and i wouldn't have thought to try it except that recently a few folks have mentioned doing so on the forum.

    hyvää uutta vuotta!

    ('happy new year!' in finnish for the non-mensa candidates like myself)
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #25

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    a few folks have mentioned doing so on the forum.

    hyvää uutta vuotta!
    can you link the thread?

    Hyvää uutta vuotta to you Squarepeg!

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    can you link the thread?
    no, there was no specific thread, but rather advice given here and there for folks having dead outs (and not understanding the reason for the dead out) to wash the dead bees and look for mites.

    i decided to try it myself, and i was interested to see that you have done so as well.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #27

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Back in 2009 I had this idea that my secret would be bees flying out with mites to death during winter. Somewhere someone speculated about it, bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony. Like they do if they have nosema.
    Sometimes when I picked up 5-10 bees , couple of them had a mite, so I thought to make a large sample. The infestation seemed to be rather high, but because my overall infestation was not known there was little evidence to prove anything.

    I had totally forgotten this incident, when I for some reason counted and washed mites again 2017. Shame that because the original measuring was done just for curiosity, with no proper plan, I have no real results. And even if done properly it would be risky to make any conclusions.

    But it always feels good to not to find that many mites. And it is one way to have contact with bees, even dead ones, during our long winter.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Juhani
    But it always feels good to not to find that many mites. And it is one way to have contact with bees, even dead ones, during our long winter.

    I had lots of dead bees in front of my hives after the first two week cold spell. It does not seem to have gotten worse since that first bunch of dead bees and they are dried up in clumps now. I have this at certain times through the year with certain bees and the only time I am pretty sure of the cause are times when I pull honey and such. Some hives seem to be worse then others.

    I have seen the advice to count mites on dead given to members that ask about the cause of their dead hives just like squarepeg has.

    I like hearing about your experience and your results from what you do. I am still at the just looking at the comb for clues stage of bee keeping and not too good at that.

    Thanks for posting.
    gww
    zone 5b

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    i have tried washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts i've had so far this winter i washed about 2% and 4.7% respectively.

    like you i'm not sure what these numbers mean exactly, and i wouldn't have thought to try it except that recently a few folks have mentioned doing so on the forum.

    hyvää uutta vuotta!

    ('happy new year!' in finnish for the non-mensa candidates like myself)
    sp, what is the purpose of "washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts?" Happy New Year!

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    sp, what is the purpose of "washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts?" Happy New Year!
    feliz Ano Novo to you as well eduardo!

    the purpose was mostly to satisfy curiosity.

    all signs pointed to queen failure as the reason for the deadouts,

    but i am open minded enough to consider varroa might be a factor, especially if i would have found large numbers of mites on the bottom board and/or washed from the bees.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Yes, now I understand the purpose. In my opinio it's a step forward you're giving. Thank you sp!

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Back in 2009 I had this idea that my secret would be bees flying out with mites to death during winter. Somewhere someone speculated about it, bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony.
    Juhani:

    I don't know if it is any help at all, but I have observed the above phenomena with both of the packages I had which succumbed to mite pressure. Specifically, at almost 1 minute intervals, I would see bees flying straight out of the hive during cold weather (i.e. 20 degrees F). Troubled by this, I started catching them with a gloved-hand and saw that every one of them had an attached mite (or two or three). It seems they know they are a liability to the hive and so they make a sacrificial flight.

    Ultimately, this is what did in both of the packages- the clusters got so small that they were unable to keep warm and failed during low ambient conditions.

    As always, I enjoy reading your posts.

    Russ

  14. #33

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    I don't know if it is any help at all, but I have observed the above phenomena with both of the packages I had which succumbed to mite pressure.
    Of course dying hives do this.

    The point is if well overwintering colonies have this phenomena, too, as a way to lighten their mite burden. At the moment there is no evidence at all.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    juhani, how do you make up your nucs for the long cold winter there?

    i.e. what is the size of the hive and how much honey?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #35

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    juhani, how do you make up your nucs for the long cold winter there?

    i.e. what is the size of the hive and how much honey?
    Nucs are made by dividing a colony with a whole box, which contains bees, brood and food. Before resistance breeding end of July was ok, now they need more time to get into wintering strength. Nucs are given inseminated queens (wooden hives) or cells (small hives). Insemination takes place in the small hives because they are handy to confine so the queen does not get out.

    Lately all my bees have been in my home yard, so no flying bees come with, but they soon recover from that.
    Next summer I need to place them in other locations too. In that situation nucs are always made into another yard.

    All hives have two boxes in winter, the wooden ones 2x12=24 frames 140x448mm, small hives 2x6=12 frames 160x220mm. They all have "high bottoms" which enables free drone raising. The drone comb space is about 7 cm high.

    Usually most honey is taken out and sugar is given as liquid in August September. This autumn I left the wooden ones 15 kg honey and gave only just over 10 liters of sugar solution. The small hives (small amount, if any) honey was harvested out and gave as much sugar solution as they took. Here in Finland you can order the solution with a very modest freight to your doorstep by truck.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    i'm impressed with the size of the smaller nucs and that they make it through your long cold winters.

    is the survival about the same between the wooden nucs and the smaller nucs?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #37

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i'm impressed with the size of the smaller nucs and that they make it through your long cold winters.

    is the survival about the same between the wooden nucs and the smaller nucs?
    Yes, very close the same. The smaller hives had moisture problems before, now the new bottom structure allows more air to circulate.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    very cool juhani. many thanks for the replies.

    my winters are much milder here. the first tree pollens should be available in a more few weeks or so.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #39

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    my winters are much milder here
    You have no winters, in our standards

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    You have no winters, in our standards

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