Treatment Free in Finland
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  1. #1

    Default Treatment Free in Finland

    Made a short visit to Heimo Kangasaho, the one other TF beekeeper in Finland that I know of.

    https://naturebees.wordpress.com/201...er-since-2001/

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  3. #2
    Join Date
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    very interesting story juhani, many thanks for sharing it.

    i've only skimmed it for now, but will give a more careful read later.

    (i felt like your contributions are unique and deserving of a thread, i hope you don't mind that i created this one)
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #3

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland



    Hopefully we will find more of us later.
    New thread... I suppose we are worth it.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    You mention that his bees seem to have a different mechanism for mite resistance. Can you describe the difference?

    I've experienced problems when combining genetics from two different parental lines with different mechanisms for resistance. In one instance, the first cross was highly susceptible to mites. Later generations stabilized and developed better mite resistance than either parental line. For reference, this was when I crossed queens raised from my first mite resistant queen with drones from Purvis queens.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  6. #5

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    You mention that his bees seem to have a different mechanism for mite resistance. Can you describe the difference?

    I've experienced problems when combining genetics from two different parental lines with different mechanisms for resistance. In one instance, the first cross was highly susceptible to mites. Later generations stabilized and developed better mite resistance than either parental line. For reference, this was when I crossed queens raised from my first mite resistant queen with drones from Purvis queens.
    Very interesting to hear about your similar experiences. It might actually be, by both of us, that it is just what happens according to Mendel laws: variation opens up!

    It is hard to describe the difference, if there is any. After all I have quite few hives and the test series only has a handful of queens. It seems that Kangasaho queens make more brood and most of all there are no holes in it. You can see it in the picture in my blog, very typical looking. My bees seem to be over cautious, holes all over and slow development. And because the brood areas are larger and less holes, the Kangasaho queens seem to more easily grow large colonies. Despite that the infestation levels (sugar roll in May/June) seem to be in similar levels. Some got brood disease and dwindled away.
    Heimo has been TF 7 years longer than me, maybe this makes the difference as breeding advance.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    “Pure Lundén Resistant Queens make smaller than average brood area, but of course not treating must have an effect.“

    Sharp observation. Location makes so much difference in what works. We purposely keep very small, compact hives, largely because of hive beetles. That seems to work for us. We don’t feed. I understand the fascination with massive hives, but I don’t share it. I’m fascinated by small, healthy colonies that require little work other than adding supers and harvesting.
    Last edited by Riverderwent; 09-23-2018 at 07:45 PM.
    David Matlock

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    ....... I understand the fascination with massive hives, but I don’t share it. I’m fascinated by small, healthy colonies that require little work other than adding supers and harvesting.
    +1.
    I too am trying to keep managing small to medium colonies as my staple.
    Hence, the beehive configuration experiments that I do - once a good configuration is finalized to consistently winter 5-6 frame colonies in upper Midwest - that is all I want to do long-term.
    A massive hive can be created anytime and any place (for as long as you have a fleet of small hives).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #8

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    The elgon queens from sweden do the same. One deep or three langstroth mediums and on top the honey mediums, sometimes as high as a person is in flow season as production hives, as I saw when I was in sweden.

    But: if brood is destroyed by VSH behaviour the broodnest is not expanding as much as in a treated hive, IMO.

  10. #9

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    “Pure Lundén Resistant Queens make smaller than average brood area, but of course not treating must have an effect.“

    Sharp observation. Location makes so much difference in what works.
    I have had thoughts about my location. In the old days, when I treated, I got max. 150 kg honey from my home yard, I considered it so poor that I usually kept only 4 hives on it. In comparison I usually had 6 hives on my other yards and I could get 400 kg or more from one place.
    Now I have had up to 25 normal hives and 25 small hives on my home yard. Maybe there is simply lack of pollen. Comparing this home yard to my best places is like comaparing IPM beekeepers to TF beekeepers, it cannot be done.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Screenshot 2018-09-27 18.20.04.jpg

    This is a graft from Baton USDA report about VSH and POL line queens. https://slideplayer.com/slide/10410534/


    Shows just how vast the variation is although they used single drone insemination and selected stocks.
    It gives some idea how difficult varroa resistance breeding is. Only the best 25% are varroa resistant of the queens in the graft.

    No wonder I had some doubts about Kangasaho material (the F1s), whether I should reject them altogether. Luckily I did not.

  12. #11
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Juhani:

    I am subscribing to this thread in hopes to glean from your experience as you have time to share.

    Signed,

    Hopeful in Kentucky

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Great pic Juhani


    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #13

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Great pic Juhani

  15. #14

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    I am subscribing to this thread in hopes to glean from your experience as you have time to share
    Thanks!
    Not so much about time, but for the last 3 months there has been nothing to tell. Well maybe one thing: because of climate change I for the first time saw some bees flying in November, usually the last time is somewhere in the first half of October you see some crazy kamikaze bee around. Of course some sick bees all winter come out, but they have no intention to return.

    14 normal size hives and 24 nucs are all humming nicely, there was 15 normal size hives in the early august but one did not take any food it was so weak. The size of the melted roof tops (yep, they the ones I got this Real Mensa nomination) tell me some information about the size and place of the cluster. If it is in the side, I need to have an earlier peak inside in the spring, to ensure that they are in contact with stores. But that is sometime in April.

    2019 I probably need to consider replacing my hives in several locations. Summer 2018 was the total opposite to the three summers before, very hot. But surprise surprise: lack off pollen happens in drought too! To my memory we have never had such drought as 2018 was.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 12-14-2018 at 11:31 PM.

  16. #15
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    Default

    Juhani:

    Thank you for the update- I am laughing about the Mensa candidate comment and I am sure there is a good back story to this one- I've seen the quotation in your signature... snow here is a relatively infrequent and panic-inducing event, causing a mad run on the stores for bread and milk 🙂

    I didn't want you to feel rushed to respond, just wanted to subscribe so I would be notified when you commented.

    As far as the climate changing, winters here seem to be characterized by much more variability- it was 18 degrees F on Monday night and 57 degrees F on Wednesday afternoon. It is not all that uncommon to have 40 + degree F swings in a 12 hour period.

    I look forward to what you will be sharing. Have a great day.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  17. #16

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    Thank you for the update- I am laughing about the Mensa candidate comment and I am sure there is a good back story to this one- I've seen the quotation in your signature...
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...keepers/page13

    post 246

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    Tim I interesting guy. Treatment free but manages to antagonise every TF beekeeper he talks to. Even got kicked off Solomon Parkers TF Facebook group.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #18
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    Default

    Juhani:

    Thanks for clarifying- I actually have been following that thread and saw that post but assumed it went farther back than that. If I have learned but one thing yet, it is that successful beekeeping seems to be highly variable based on where you live, and furthermore, with a lot of management decisions, it appears sometimes there is more than one acceptable option?
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  20. #19

    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    I have made some counting of mites with a method which suits everybody: how many mites is found on the dead bees dying during winter time.
    For some reason I made one larger measuring in 2009 and then again 2017, and found that infestation had gone down pretty much in the same speed as the infestation of breeder queens. Dead bees had much higher level of infestation, but going down the same way, with several years delay, as in breeder hives.

    Mites on dead bees:
    2009 11%
    2017 4,5%

    I make no claims of any accuracy what so ever, but just interesting to notice.

    Just today found 112 "fresh" dead bees on the snow, near the entrances, mites on two of them, one had 2, 3 mites altogether, 2,6% infestation.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Treatment Free in Finland

    that's interesting juhani. about how many hives did you sample like that in 2009 and 2017?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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