Sorting Wheat from the Chaff
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  1. #1
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    Question Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    I suspect that search engines such as google and many forums can skew the quality of online advice by the mechanism of placing the results. Results that get the most hits are top of the list and might suggest to many people that the placing is relative to their degree of accuracy. Add to that the fact that results can be skewed by searches that deliberately select for only supporting hits (or contradicting as the case may be) when used to support or put down a different hypothesis.

    In the case of bee keeping the people with the least experience far outnumber the searchers with an established track record. The media hype has created a great influx of new beekeepers and the general media focus on "natural" could be responsible for skewing their attitudes regarding beekeeping towards the idealistic rather than pragmatic.

    This great media driven movement likely has passed its peak since the reality is that a lot of sweat and intervention is often necessary to keep bees alive and somewhat productive. That sorts out noisy but shallow enthusiasm quite quickly.

    That said all their search results and philosophy lingers in the media making a difficult task for serious beginners to sort through. Much of it is very skillfuly loaded with emotional grabs.
    Sometimes I wonder if the mountain of information on the internet really is making us much wiser!
    Frank

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    frank
    Sometimes I wonder if the mountain of information on the internet really is making us much wiser!
    Contrary to your question, the mountain of information on the internet has made me wiser with the word wiser being a subjective word. I put my own solar system in, built a home made saw mill and have worked on my cars and other things that I might not have tried with out having internet access. I have been helped here with my bees. Now if the argument was did the internet lead to the wisest way of doing something, I could not make a case to say yes. But does the internet make you wise enough to have more success then just doing stuff on your own, I believe I could make that case.

    In the old days you had to have real smarts to do things but now if you can weed the wheat from the chaff and are mediocre at being a copy cat, the internet helps those, not so smart, accomplish things they could not have did as well with out it.
    JMHO
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Frank, from the title of the post, and me being a KS wheat farmer for almost 50 years before i retired, I was going to give you a detailed answer to your question. But I find that you're not talking about wheat at all........ But I will say that your question has about the same answer that I was going to give. There is a lot of 'wind' that accomplishes the actual separation of wheat from the chaff....likewise there is a lot of 'wind' expelled by some 'would be' experts and the novice must wait to see what settles out.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Caveat lector (let the reader beware) is as valid as the more familiar caveat emptor (let the buyer beware); unfortunately a lot depends on the quality of your BS meter.
    “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Yes as Abe Lincoln said, you can not believe everything you read on the internet.
    Johno

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    It is amazing how powerful magical thinking can be and the sheer numbers of people who allow themselves to be drawn into it. Once a train of misinformation gets going it is very hard to turn it aside. With a few gurus blowing on it, along with popular media fanning it on, it sweeps across the land. People who get scorched tend to quietly fade away instead of exposing the misconceptions.

    Some peoples eyes narrow and lips purse when encountering it while others meet it wide eyed with open arms. I guess it just is as it is!
    Frank

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if the mountain of information on the internet really is making us much wiser!
    The snake oil salesperson has been around for hundreds of years, internet is just a newer more modern venue for that sales pitch that allows it to reach a wider audience.

    I think any time you have a group of folks, always going to be a snake oil salesperson find the group and attempt to 'sell the wares', it's just easier to find a receptive audience when you can reach far and wide online.

    For some reason that makes no sense at all, celebrity endorsement seems to carry more weight in folks minds these days than actual facts. One needs look no farther than the recent resurgence of flat earth crap to see that. But hey, make a youtube video based on totally flawed math, get some sports star to endorse it, and you are off to the races creating yet another cult based on totally erroneous information. It may have been a hard sell in bygone days when the person selling the line was limited in how many they could reach, but modern internet communications give audiences of millions, so even if only one in a thousand falls for the line initially, that creates a thousand followers further pushing the fantasy.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    I believed everything I read on Beesource.

    I actually tried Small Cell, Housel positioning, double depth frames, foundationless brood frames, medium depth brood frames....the list goes on.

  10. #9

    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Don´t cry.
    Say f...you and smile.


  11. #10
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Sometimes something sounds plausible enough for one to try it out for themselves.

    Throughout human history there has never been a shortage of blowhards, ill informed people, or people spreading bad information, bad gurus etc. Everyone gets fooled now and again. There's also no shortage of wide eyed people who take what they hear from others as gospel. Beesource has gotten me a few times but not too badly. Its like any other venue, just watch and read for a while. The charlatans, blowhards, and know it alls usually out themselves pretty quickly... separating themselves from the wheat.

    1 1/4" wide end bar brood frames burn pretty well. Good thing I only built 10 and the best use for small cell I have ever found, shockingly, is in a honey super

    So f you beesource (and smile)
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Don´t cry.
    Say f...you and smile.

    I agree. This has pretty much been my attitude from early on when I realized that there was actual 'chaff' on beesource. I think most of us like to make our own mistakes.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Maybe it is a mild form of the "Messiah Complex" that drives some of the wannabes. Not a blatant attempt to deceive at all; they actuallly believe it and demand the respect for their position no matter how convoluted, slender and unsupported the chain of connectedness. That part is not is not remarkable at all but what amazes me is the followers who buy into it!

    messiah complex (also known as the savior complex) is a state of mind in which an individual holds a belief that they are destined to become a savior. The term can also refer to a state of mind in which an individual believes that he or she is responsible for saving or assisting others.
    Frank

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    A strong enough desire should enable someone to stick around long enough to learn what is wheat and what is chaff.

    More chaff than wheat for sure, but over time you get it sorted out.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    I don't think the issue is as much the few snake oil salesmen, but the group as a whole allowing the chaff to stand unchallenged and repeated.

    "if everyone is agreeing, nobody is thinking." Allen Dick

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I don't think the issue is as much the few snake oil salesmen, but the group as a whole allowing the chaff to stand unchallenged and repeated.

    "if everyone is agreeing, nobody is thinking." Allen Dick
    I'm not a long time beek, only been at it 4-5 years, so I really hate to confront a 'chaffer' unless I've actually tried their idea and failed. Some times there may be more than one way to skin a cat.....or save the wheat.
    Last edited by Tim KS; 09-17-2018 at 05:32 PM.

  17. #16

    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Sold three nucs to a young fellow and he is now a youtube star. I called and asked him how he thought that six months in a hobby made him such an expert that he felt he should state things as fact.
    Said he read a lot of books and was on the internet learning everything he could. He also stated he had lots of followers which he used as accreditation.
    I love his zeal. I am also thankful he is trying to find information.
    BUT that isn't the real world.
    Wife's having a kid and I want an old doctor who has done hundred's of deliveries not just out of college with the internet and a book in his hand.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    At the end of the day there's them that walk the walk and them that talk the talk, I put my money and time with those who walk the walk. You may have noticed that we do not get much comment from the commercial beekeepers anymore, I guess they are tired of being told by some newbees or something that they are doing it all wrong. I would also point to a thread in the commercial section entitled something like " I have ordered my first 2 hives of 10,000 or something like that, that belongs in the beginners section. So the internet makes experts with anyone who can read.
    Johno

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    It is definitely better to try and fail than to chastise others for trying then giving advice on how things should have been done, that's for sure. Like I said, they usually blow hard and out themselves pretty quickly.
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Yes as Abe Lincoln said, you can not believe everything you read on the internet.
    That Abe Lincoln was one smart fella
    “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Sorting Wheat from the Chaff

    Yes just like that Einstein fella who is purported to have said " when all the bees are gone mankind will follow in 4 years " now we have found out that was actually a typo, what he said was " when all the beer is gone man will follow in 4 years " makes more sense to me.
    Johno

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