Correct filter cartridges for OAV?
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  1. #1
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    Default Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    I purchased a ProVap 110 toward the end of the season last year, and I must say, I love it! It took me about an hour to administer the first round to about 45 colonies, including the time it took to wheel the generator around through the woods. I'm glad I suited up completely beforehand, judging by the cloud of bees bouncing off my veil in an attempt to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the colony. Once I figured out a good rhythm, I was able to move from colony to colony, keeping the temperature right close to the preset 230C. I found that if I waited just a few seconds too long, the temperature would rise to as much as 260C, and I would have to wait about a minute before I could vape the next hive.

    I have a Honeywell/North 7600 series full-face respirator with a brand new pair of 7581P100L cartridges. They have a particulate filter in front of an organic vapor filter, but when I used the respirator this morning, I could still occasionally smell a slight odor from the oxalic acid, and slightly feel the irritating effects of it as well. I made sure to stay upwind of it as much as possible, and would stop breathing when I could see it drift toward my face.

    The respirator itself fits me properly, and all of the sealing surfaces are in great condition. The lens is undamaged as well. I have used it in a paint booth plenty of times, and feel quite confident that I can obtain a good seal with it. The only thing I can think of which might interfere with a good seal is this 5-day stubble on my face. I'll be sure to shave before the next round and see if that makes a difference.

    Is there a better filter cartridge I should be using, or is this typical of what I should expect when I get a face full of OA vapors?


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  3. #2

    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    You need to use the cartridge for acid. I can't speak on the Honeywell one but 3ms are yellow

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    When I talked to the tech department at Grainger, I asked about oxalic acid, and this was the one he said was to be used for it. I could find cartridges for acid vapors and I could find cartridges for organic vapors, but none that specifically stated organic acid vapors. That's why I called their tech support line.

  5. #4
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    Dec 2011
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    Funny thing, most times I do not need to wear a mask, but when I do especially when working with OAV inside a closed room I have been using a 3M- N95 or 3M 8511 paper particulate mask and have yet to get a whiff of OAV, for what thats worth.
    Johno

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodstove View Post
    When I talked to the tech department at Grainger, I asked about oxalic acid, and this was the one he said was to be used for it. I could find cartridges for acid vapors and I could find cartridges for organic vapors, but none that specifically stated organic acid vapors. That's why I called their tech support line.
    The white cloud isn't a vapour (i.e. a gas) it's a fine dust which has been created by the action of heat vapourisation. Hence a dust mask is all you really need, if anything. I stay up-wind of the hive being treated, and have never used a mask. If you're "getting a face-full" of Oxalic Acid dust then you're doing something very wrong indeed.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    You need filters for "acid gas". I believe the universal standard for those has a yellow band, but you should get whatever your manufacturer recommends for acid gases and not depend only on the color of the band.

    The "organic" vapors description is confusing because you know oxalic acid is classified as an "organic acid" and you are doing what call "vaporizing."

    But technically we are sublimating, not vaporizing.

    And an "organic acid" is simply a cliasification in chemistry that means OA occurs naturally, and is not something only made in labs.

    Of course, the OA we use is made in a factory, but that doesn't alter anything. Of course it's also neither an "organic" treatment (there is no such certification for bees in the US), nor organic, in the sense of being like, say, organic milk.

    That being said if you were detecting any odor or sensation, you should consider that you may not have a proper fit on the mask. Did you do the inhalation/exhalation fit check before you started today, and most importantly every time you don the mask,even if you had if off for only a few seconds.

    I am a former volunteer firefighter who did interior attack in fire buildings using self-contained breathing gear and fit checks EVERY SINGLE TIME was drummed into us, so it's second nature to me. If the safety officer saw you failing to do one, he'd haul your butt ignominiously out for a teaching moment right on the spot. Having that experience even once is not something you'd every want to repeat. However I find people without that experience need to make a special mental effort to remember to do it, without fail. Fit in the soft tissue of our faces depends on a good seal.

    Nancy

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    Woodstove I would not worry about the temp of you vaporizer being higher than 230C, when the OA hits the chamber the latent heat required to sublimate the acid drops the temperature down to sublimation temperature of around 150C and when it rises back over 220C you know the sublimation is complete. Now as to gas or solid, once that stuff leaves the outlet it is already condensing into fine OA crystals. I have a pic out there somewhere where I brought my arm to within 2 inches of that outlet and it does not burn your skin and the fine white crystals coat the hair on your arm what more proof does one need.
    Johno

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    I would take the cartridge off and check the inhale and exhale valves to see if they were leaking. Then I would check to see that the cartridge is put on properly. Clean shaven? Then I would check to see that the surfaces sealing against my face werent leaking. Your respirator should have instructions for all of this and the company probably has videos detailing how to do all of these things. If there are no defects in the mask I would start checking if the cartridge itself was the wrong one. I've never even caught a hint of a whiff of OA and I've been in the "vapor" cloud.

    My mask is a 3m 6000 series with a quick drop down latch. The filters are 3m 60923

    Cartridge type: Organic Vapor/Acid Gas P100


    • Offers at least 99.97% efficiency against solid and liquid aerosols, including oils
    • NIOSH approved: OV/AG/P100 (when used with NIOSH approved face piece)
    • Always follow user instructions and inspect the respirator prior to use for cleanliness and defects

    A particulate filter will also work in conjunction with the regular filter. I have never gone with just a particulate filter other than the one I use in my woodshop when I sand. It's rated for sanding fiberglass.
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    But technically we are sublimating, not vaporizing.
    Not true. By heating Oxalic Acid Dihydrate above it's sublimation temperature, a vapour is formed. Therefore we ARE vapourising Oxalic Acid - albeit momentarily. The term sublimation refers to a change in state of a chemical compound - in this case from a solid into a gas - without passing through a liquid phase.

    As soon as the vapour cools below it's sublimation temperature, the reverse occurs - that is, it changes from a gas back into a solid form, again without passing through a liquid phase. But as the molecules of gases are spread much further apart than occurs with liquids or solids, the solid state which results here is in the form of a micro-fine crystalline dust - and NOT a vapour.

    And an "organic acid" is simply a cliasification in chemistry that means OA occurs naturally, and is not something only made in labs.
    The term 'organic' in 'organic acid' relates to the presence of a carbon atom. Organic Chemistry (of which I hold a post-graduate degree) is the study of Carbon-based compounds.

    Sulphuric Acid occurs naturally - but it ain't an Organic Acid !
    LJ
    Last edited by little_john; 08-09-2018 at 05:44 PM.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    I am using the 3M mask with the 6001 organic vapor cartridges which also works well with all the nasty stuff found in today's high tech finishes . The stripe is black. When I worked for a chlorine and sulfer dioxide repackager, we had acid gas canisters for our MSA equipment. The stripe was yellow. You could always play it real safe and go full SCBA
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #11
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    Jun 2018
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    Cecil County, MD
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    You need filters for "acid gas". I believe the universal standard for those has a yellow band, but you should get whatever your manufacturer recommends for acid gases and not depend only on the color of the band.

    The "organic" vapors description is confusing because you know oxalic acid is classified as an "organic acid" and you are doing what call "vaporizing."

    But technically we are sublimating, not vaporizing.

    And an "organic acid" is simply a cliasification in chemistry that means OA occurs naturally, and is not something only made in labs.

    Of course, the OA we use is made in a factory, but that doesn't alter anything. Of course it's also neither an "organic" treatment (there is no such certification for bees in the US), nor organic, in the sense of being like, say, organic milk.

    That being said if you were detecting any odor or sensation, you should consider that you may not have a proper fit on the mask. Did you do the inhalation/exhalation fit check before you started today, and most importantly every time you don the mask,even if you had if off for only a few seconds.

    I am a former volunteer firefighter who did interior attack in fire buildings using self-contained breathing gear and fit checks EVERY SINGLE TIME was drummed into us, so it's second nature to me. If the safety officer saw you failing to do one, he'd haul your butt ignominiously out for a teaching moment right on the spot. Having that experience even once is not something you'd every want to repeat. However I find people without that experience need to make a special mental effort to remember to do it, without fail. Fit in the soft tissue of our faces depends on a good seal.

    Nancy
    Yeah, it's the wrong filter. I would have thought the tech support guy would have recommended the correct one, but it didn't happen that way. Oh well, I'll just have to go get the correct filters before I do the next round.

    During Fire 1 training, they wouldn't let us go into the burn building if you hadn't shaved that morning. They made sure we knew the importance of performing the inhale/exhale fit check every time we don our SCBA. I do the same check with a respirator as well. Every time.

    By the way, Nancy, I really appreciate the time you take to answer so many questions here in the forum. I pay close attention when reading your posts, because I'm sure to learn something. Thanks.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
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    Default Re: Correct filter cartridges for OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    The term 'organic' in 'organic acid' relates to the presence of a carbon atom. Organic Chemistry (of which I hold a post-graduate degree) is the study of Carbon-based compounds
    That explains an awful lot. Now it makes sense to me why it's called an organic acid. Thanks.

    Looks like I need the 7583P100L which covers both organic vapors and acid gases. It has a P100 filter as well.
    Last edited by Woodstove; 08-09-2018 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Correct part number

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