Undercoat with primer?
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  1. #1
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    Default Undercoat with primer?

    Is it important to apply a layer of primer to a super before painting the two outside layers of paint?

    If so, can paint diluted with some water work as a primer? Can one do anything with linseed oil?

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    I alwa6s put a primer coat on everything i paint. Yes, it.will last longer.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    I use whatever paint I can source cheaply. Sometimes that even means polyurethane floor paint which, thus far, has always turned out to be really good stuff. The last good 'score' I had at a Bring 'n' Buy Sale was around two gallons of brilliant white gloss for silly money - an excellent make - and all in unopened 2 pint tins. As I don't have any suitable primer, I added around 10% white spirit to a couple of tins and have been using that instead. I've no doubt that's not as good as the real thing, but it soaks in really well and provides a good base for a further two coats of gloss. Two coats - 'cause I don't have any undercoat either ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Paint generally doesn't like to stick to wood for as long as we would like for it to stick. But it will stick to primer very well. The adhesion properties of the primer allow it bond to the wood, but primer doesn't make for a good topcoat. That's why it's ideal to use both.

    Thinning the paint won't improve its adhesion properties, it just makes it thinner. The pigments might soak in deeper, but the binders in the paint generally won't adhere any better to the wood itself.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    I get all my paint at the mis-tint rack of the paint store for $8 per gallon and will not spend $15 on primer. I read on this forum that if you get a full color stain the same base as your paint it is as good if not better than primer (designed to adhere to wood). I have been doing this since about 2013 with good results on all my outdoor projects. Not a long sample time for paint I know.
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    I sand with 80 grit first. This give the primer something to grab. Apply oil base primer and 2 coats of latex

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodstove View Post
    Thinning the paint won't improve its adhesion properties, it just makes it thinner. The pigments might soak in deeper, but the binders in the paint generally won't adhere any better to the wood itself.
    Thinning paint in order to obtain improved mechanical adhesion onto porous surfaces is a well-established practice.

    Being raised here in Britain during the immediate post-war years, at a time when food was still being rationed and materials extremely hard to come by, we learned to 'make do' and improvise with whatever could be acquired. That mentality has persisted throughout my life, and during that time this learned ability to improvise has frequently been contrasted against those who have been paralysed into inaction for want of the perfect tool or ideal material.

    I have absolutely no doubt that the practice of applying diluted gloss paint onto an absorbent bare wooden surface is inferior to that of using a purpose-made primer and/or sealer - but maybe doing so is 'good enough' for the coating of wooden boxes designed solely for the housing of insects ?

    I make boxes and even whole hives from zero-cost pallet wood, with the only expense being that of glue, screws, and electricity. I hope you would agree that it would be absurd to then spend a disproportionate amount purchasing specialist paints with which to coat them ?
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    I should have thought that statement out a little better. I guess I was thinking too much along the lines of non-porous surfaces, and didn't think about how that wouldn't necessarily apply to porous surfaces. I have some experience with oil based products on metal and plastic, which most often require etch primers and adhesion promoters before even applying the primer. If I had thought to look down at the hardwood floor under my feet, I would have remembered that I cut my first coat of oil-based clear by 50% with mineral spirits. Thanks for setting me straight.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    If you have ever had to clean slightly dried primer from your hands and the next day, slightly dried paint from your hands, you would understand the difference in adhesion between the two.
    It takes about twice as scrubbing to clean your hands of the primer.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Speaking as a painting contractor. Their is a reason why a primer is made. I can't speak on the prime in all. But every time I have I have used it it failed earlier than a good primer and a good simi gloss paint. And 15 is cheap for a price of primer that is not a miss match.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Read other threads about using linseed oil, does not protect like paint does, need to re apply often.

    I would also think it would prevent paint from sticking.

    For the best protection I would use primer Kiltz it's only $15 a gallon, get it tinted close to the same color of your paint. I apply one coat of primer and one coat of oops paint, many of my boxes are seven years old and still looking good.

  13. #12
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    Default

    Primer is designed differenly than paint. It is very adhesive, and also produces a surface that paint sticks to well. Good priming will prevent peeling for years.

    A better alternative to watering topcoat as primer, is to use oil based enamel for a prime coat. Thin it somewhat, it is often better than cheap primer. You could use mis-tints for this, often found in the clearance racks. Look for outdoor grade.

    It is going outside. Good paint really helps them last.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Quote Originally Posted by jadebees View Post
    A better alternative to watering topcoat as primer, is to use oil based enamel for a prime coat.
    I thought that the enamel was the only paint not to use under a latex top coat?
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  15. #14
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    Default

    No problems. Let it dry thoroughly. It will b just like oil based undercoat.

  16. #15
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    Default

    Really better, is to just buy primer.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    As for latex paint, NEVER dilute (latex) paint with water. In doing so you will develop water blisters as the paint dries. If you need to dilute, us denatured alcohol. If there are any knots in the wood, use "Kilz" on those surfaces. After Kilz, you can use any outdoor paint.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthAussieBeekeeper View Post
    Is it important to apply a layer of primer to a super before painting the two outside layers of paint?

    If so, can paint diluted with some water work as a primer? Can one do anything with linseed oil?
    1) Primer sticks to wood. Paint sticks to primer. 2) Do NOT use the Primer/Paint mix if it is your first time painting bare wood. 3) Primer is not waterproof. You need a coat of paint over it. 4) Linseed oil is not a primer. 5) You want your paint job to last for years. Go cheap and/or take shortcuts and your boxes will start to rot before you know it. You can get good, but cheap paint at the rejects display (paint returns, missed colors, etc...), but get a good quality and make sure it is exterior.

  19. #18
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    Default

    Good to know that a primer is important. How many coats should I apply? And what kind of primer should I use?

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Don't know whats available in Australia. Kilz or Zinsser are similarly priced and both good products here in the US. I have personally seen evidence that Zinsser did a better job in sealing smoke damaged woodwork so I've always opted for that if they are sitting side by side in the store.
    Our routine for years has been a coat of primer followed by 2 coats of a quality semi-gloss applied with a sprayer and immediately "backrolled" with a roller concentrating on the corner end grain where the paint really soaks in. We have boxes going on 20 years now using this process that aren't showing any signs of paint failure.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Undercoat with primer?

    Should I use a waterbased, or oil based primer?

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