OAV Propane Gaget
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  1. #1
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    Default OAV Propane Gaget

    Hi everyone.
    Grozzies's post got me worried, so I am getting ready to start my OAV treatment. I have the wand but I just don't like dragging battery around and I think it is too slow. I intend to make several of these and use a regular propane torch. It takes about 50 second to get the OA vaporized in this gadget. If you have had any experience with this method of using propane or you know of anything I should know please let me know.
    Thanks
    DP
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  3. #2
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    known as "crack pipe" oav

    The slow heat pan type vaporizers thermally break down about 50% of the OA, there is a supisstion That the fast type ones will break it down more, roumor is randy olver is doing some tests, so we shale see.

    if your worried about speed why not the long proven dribble method instead of some unproven experimental one ?

    un like the wand your right by the hive and can get a face full of OAV... seems like you would need more protective gear
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  4. #3
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Quote Originally Posted by deepster View Post
    Hi everyone.
    Grozzies's post got me worried, so I am getting ready to start my OAV treatment. I have the wand but I just don't like dragging battery around and I think it is too slow. I intend to make several of these and use a regular propane torch. It takes about 50 second to get the OA vaporized in this gadget. If you have had any experience with this method of using propane or you know of anything I should know please let me know.
    Thanks
    DP
    Quicker, yes but as yet not proven to work very well. You stated you were interested in make several. How much would it cost in time and money to make several? Might be less costly to get something like a ProVap 110 or other quicker to use OAV product.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Oxalic acid vaporization has 3 important temperatures. As the oxalic acid diydrate heats up, initially the water portion boils off as temperature goes over 100C (212F) and that creates the cloud of steam you see initially during vaporization. At 157C (315F) the oxalic acid will start to sublimate, this is the stuff you want to propogate thru the hive and become tiny OA crystals throughout the hive. Continue heating and as temp goes over 189C (372F) any oxalic acid left will break down into a tiny amount of formic acid and carbon monoxide.

    Pan style vaporizers use a very crude but effective means of temperature control. A glow plug produces a limited amount of heat, and the aluminum pan acts as a heat sink, ie it cannot be heated up in just a couple of seconds. The amount of time it takes to heat the pan up to the breakdown temperature is usually enough time for a 2g load to sublimate before it gets that hot. Higher capacity, ie faster, vaporizers typically have a form of thermostat to control pan temperature and prevent the OA from being brought up to breakdown temperatures.

    My question for a method using a torch like that, how are you ensuring the OA is being heated to sublimation temperatures without being overheated into the breakdown range ?

  6. #5
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Get a lighter battery! Mine is a little lawn mower one and I have rigged a rope harness for it so I can carry around like a purse. I think a battery like that costs about $60, but it is well worth it, IMO. I schlepp mine around to sites that are more than half a mile from where I can park my car. I carry a gallon of water, smoker, protective gear and all the OAV equipment in one tote (a 5-gallon bucket) and the battery in the other hand. If I had to carry a car battery this wouldn't be possible. I can do more than 20 hives before my little battery gets a bit squirrely, and needs to be recharged.

    I know my Varrox works exactly as intended. I wouldn't want to waste even a fraction of my effort on an unproven method. Never mind the risks to the bees.

    Nancy

  7. #6
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Higher capacity, ie faster, vaporizers typically have a form of thermostat to control pan temperature and prevent the OA from being brought up to breakdown temperatures.
    My question for a method using a torch like that, how are you ensuring the OA is being heated to sublimation temperatures without being overheated into the breakdown range
    Acording to the literature the provap 110 has a starting temp of 230c and doesn't drop below 210c and will finish vaperising in 20 seconds

    the OP is cold starting the pipe, and its taking almost 3x as long as the provap, I don't see how he would be overheating the OA any more then the provap...
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  8. #7
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    I used my form of a crack pipe for two years, and worked well. It had very good mite drop after treatment .The key is to do alcohol wash before and after treatment. I did 4 treatments 5 days apart , test then retreat if necessary . You have to take care to heat pipe up as far as you can , then bowl or the OA will recristalize in the pipe and clog up. I have since moved on to a homemade cheap-O Vac of JOHNO design . This unit works fast and very cheap to make , and don't clog up. I can treat 7 hives in 30 min from the time out the back door set up heat up treat and clear up and back in door. Thank you JohnO . Pete

  9. #8
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    I can build 10 of thise crack pipe in one hour, at the cost of around $14 each, one can watch the process of sublimation by test drive, to know exactly how long it needs to keep the touch directly on the pan, you see it boil first them sublimate and set your timer. around 50 seconds for this one. Now if I have ten of them and assuming they are effective, I can load them install them on the hives close up hives and start heating one by one. Ten hives done in 10 minutes! to me this is fantastic. No hot wand in the hive either. Tip of this contraption doesn't get that hot.

    Which leaves me with one Question, Why this method is not very popular!?

    rangerpeterj
    Yes, I noticed the Crystallization in the pipe. Did you loose hives when you treated with your crack pipe, can you post a pic?

    Please give me more info on cheap-O Vac of JOHNO design

    In the mean while I am getting a lawnmower battery.
    Thank you everyone. I like to know how many more of crack pipe users are out there

  10. #9
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  11. #10
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    I don't see how he would be overheating the OA any more then the provap
    I am not an expert but my (engineering mind) thinking is the provap spreads the OA over a larger area (inch+ square) while the pipe may be a smaller pile spread over less area. When you spread the OA over more area it may vaproize quicker. I do not have any data to prove this though.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    If you research Oxalic Acid's response to temperature, then you'll discover that should Oxalic Acid Dihydrate be subjected to gradually rising heat, it will first dehydrate and then vapourise. This vapour, having cooled upon leaving the heat source which created it, then forms into a visible micro-crystalline dust of Oxalic Acid. (OA vapour itself being invisible)

    BUT - if Oxalic Acid Dihydrate is suddenly subjected to a source of heat well above it's sublimation temperature (known colloquially as 'red heat'), then it will decompose into Formic Acid, Carbon Monoxide, and other 'non-specific' compounds.

    To suddenly subject Oxalic Acid to such a high temperature then not only destroys the compound itself, but decomposes it with some uncertainty. Therefore it's essential to avoid sudden exposure to such high temperatures.

    So - when vapourising Oxalic Acid, it's important to allow the temperature to rise reasonably slowly. With Johno's Band Heater design, observations that the visible cloud of Oxalic Acid dust has retained it's crystalline structure is essentially confirmation that the rise in temperature has not been excessive. Because - upon cooling, Formic Acid vapour forms a liquid and NOT crystals, so this difference can be used for (rough) confirmation.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  13. #12
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    mls wow just wow I stayed up for a while reading johno's thread, lots of if info. there. what a great group job. I will be making cheap-o and the full version for sure. thank you so much for sending it. I guess he is recreating the provap vaporizer.

    Little_john That you for the full explanation. I saw john's pic with OAV crystals on his arms. Didn't understand the reason for it!!! I do get crystallization in my crack pipe. I will try my arm also!!!


    I still see a huge advantage in the crack pipe, no electricity, robust and inexpensive. It is very fast if one builds ten of them! Now that I am armed with johnos work, temp range I need and arm test! I can use a thermocouple to measure the temp of the pan after 1 minute of heating it, I am sure it is not getting above 300C because all the plumbing solder which are near pan I put together are nowhere near melting. solder melts above 240deg C.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    sort of LJ, I don't think most beekeeper can tell the level of break down by eye.
    as I noted earlyer they have seen significant break down even with slow heat 1% formic, 54% OA crystals, and the rest water and CO2 - EMEA/MRL/891/03

    Sounds like Randy Oliver has started his vaporizer trials, so we will likly have an answer soon about break down in the faster

    He has this feedback in another fourm
    It is absolutely amazing to me the potential health risks to themselves that beekeepers will lightheartedly take to control varroa.
    My own crew has been experimenting with two OA vaporizers this past week, and just shake their heads as to the risks involved, compared to how we are
    able to successfully control varroa year after year with much safer application methods of OA, formic, and thymol.

    That is were I am at, every time I get the itch to build aJohno-vap, I rember the cost of the safety gear

    deepster, I would save your $$ and wait for the results. and for petes sake don't go spraying OAV on your arm just because some on on the inter net did
    Why not go with OA trickle.... fast and easy, cheap, comparability safe, kills mites for a longer window then OAV, kills more mites in a brood on situation.
    Last edited by msl; 07-07-2018 at 10:11 AM.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  15. #14
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    When I got back into bees a few years ago I started to treat using just a 1/2" copper pipe about a foot long and a copper cap on the end. The cap held the correct amount of acid to treat a double brood box. It worked ok, but you need to heat the end of the pipe slowly for the correct vaporization. It does leave some crystallization in the pipe and the end cap is a little tough to get off to refill, but it does work. Shortly after I bought a temperature controlled with a built in timer that is battery powered. Slower yes, cost more yes, work better yes. Heating the pipe slowly also takes time. Would I go back to the pipe? If I had to.
    Just my two cents.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    sort of LJ, I don't think most beekeeper can tell the level of break down by eye. as I noted earlyer they have seen significant break down even with slow heat 1% formic, 54% OA crystals, and the rest water and CO2 - EMEA/MRL/891/03
    Well - I did say "rough" ... LOL

    I wouldn't get too excited about the creation of 1% of Formic Acid, although personally I'd like to avoid it completely - nasty stuff - as is thymol. With VOA you don't need too much in the way of safety gear, especially if there's a constant breeze blowing. Living near the coast I find early evening is the worst time, as sea breezes start to take over, when any existing breeze then becomes flukey and unpredictable - very easy to get a whiff of OA under those conditions. But - a simple dust mask is all you really need, along with some safety specs.

    If you're uber-safety conscious, then use a vapourising wand, and operate it from a safe distance.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  17. #16
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Bee_havin

    what brand did you buy?

  18. #17
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Why not go with OA trickle...kills mites for a longer window then OAV, kills more mites in a brood on situation.
    Explain that please.........
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  19. #18
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    sort of LJ,
    That is were I am at, every time I get the itch to build aJohno-vap, I remember the cost of the safety gear
    A one time cost for a quality respirator is hardly a reason to spend more on other treatments that you need to buy over & over & over..........
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  20. #19
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    A one time cost for a quality respirator is hardly a reason to spend more on other treatments that you need to buy over & over & over
    but I am not spending more using trickel...
    I wouldn't use a hand held high flow system with out a full face respirator, at the moment that + the cost of the vaporizer+ cost of inverter+ cost of a battery doesn't = enuff utility or time savings vs OA trickle for me. Last year I trickled 33 hives in under an hour. Also I often only use OA once a year, unless I have a problem hive, and I am not draging all that gear around to do just one or 2 hives, so even if I valued my time at $100 an hour it would be many, many years for a ROI..
    but they look just so darn cool, so I keep getting tempted, lol. Must be somthing about a smoke shooter, and the reason fad foggier cures wont die

    Explain that please
    OAV kills more mites in a brood less situation, but OA trickle drops mites for a longer peirod of time... ie mite peak drop is usaly 6 or so days. Studys are showing that when used brood on it kills more mites, it seems the longer action time alows it to contact more mites as they emerge and thus kill more mites even thow it kills a lower prestantage of mites exposed to it

    Significantly more mites fell six days after OA application than 2 or 4 days after OA application. This statistic may be interpreted several ways. One interpretation is that OA has residual activity against varroa for at least six days post-treatment. Charrière et al. (2004) and Gregorc and Planinc (2004) report that mite fall can occur over a 3 week period in hives treated with OA Aliano 2008 refereeing trickle https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...tomologyfacpub

    compare that to the 3 or so day drop OAV study's often report. varroa-15-fig-04-600x300.png Oliver 2018 The Varroa Problem: Part 15
    One of the easy ways to see this effect is in Giacomelli 2013 Honey bee queen caging: the artificial absence of brood as a strategy for varroatosis containment
    were they are testing oav and trickle on hives with and with out a brood break
    oav queen cageing.jpg
    oad queen cageing.jpg
    brood on OAV killed 6.81% more mites then the control, trickle killed 49.36% more mites then control
    when you flip to brood less oav killed 640.97% more mite then control and trickle only killed 465.82% more then control.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  21. #20
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    Default Re: OAV Propane Gaget

    You don't need a respirator - respirators are for gases - you need a reasonable quality dust mask.

    The most effective time to administer VOA is during winter, when the colonies are more-or-less broodless. That's not a suitable time to be opening up hives in order to dribble liquid all over them.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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