Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    bjorn
    I will also update as this whole exercise progresses.
    I am looking forward to it.
    gww
    zone 5b

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  3. #22
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    Rockford, IL
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Ok... 2 frames from each hive. 2 of about half capped brood. 4 of eggs and larva. 2 of pollen/honey and 2 empty. It was pretty much chaos getting to this point, lots of unhappy brushed bees. I replaced the stolen... er donor... frames with drawn comb. I didn't get too excited about exact placement of the empties because there are plenty of bees to cover the brood in all hives. I placed the whole mess on top of the supers on the strongest hive. The supers were being worked when I pulled them off, so should be good there. I did not put an additional queen excluder on. I already had one below the supers so figured the queen is isolated from this new box by 2 supers and an excluder. The pin is pulled... now we wait.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    bjorn
    I always find the actual doing of the work much harder then it was when I did it only in my mind. I believe it is going to work so good for you. Can't wait for more.
    Cheers
    gww

    Ps We could have a contest of how many queen cells will be drawn out. I am going to guess three that get capped. Nice ones too.
    zone 5b

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Ok, just checked in on the "flyaway" split. I had 6 frames of eggs and brood in various states plus 4 frames of honey/pollen. All of this was placed on top of my most populous hive over an excluder about a week ago. So, the verdict... not one queen cell. There were a lot of cups along the bottom of the frames with no eggs in them and no queen cells anywhere on the frames. I took all of this brood, now in late larva stage or capped and placed it into a double nuc with all the accompanying bees. I placed a couple of honey and pollen frames in there too. In the center I placed 2 frames of eggs from the same hive on new comb so they can tear cells down to make queen cells if necessary. Finally I shook a couple of extra frames of bees in. I set this off to the side and I'll check again in a week. My theory is that there is just too strong of pheromones in the booming hive so they didn't feel queenless. I have now essentially created a cell starter if I understand that concept correctly. Now, I'll entertain theories as to why it did not work. Gentlemen, you have the floor.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Yea, I am not sure why it did not work. You had a super between the brood and a queen excluder under it all. I have never tried it yet but know that doolittle did and mel deislekoen (AKA the mad splitter)does it but he does notch the cells that he wants made into queen cells. It is in both of those guys published works and I don't know what might be missing. I do thank you for the update and also say that I never purposely try and propose ideals that don't work.

    The one thing that does throw me is that they did make queen cups and so queen making must have been on their mind or they would not have did that.

    Are you absolutely sure they don't have a cell in there somewhere. On my walk away splits the cells were real hard to find because the bees only made one or two and they were covering them and so I had to push the bees sideways with my finger if I seen something look a little funny to be able to see the cells. They like to built them up against the side bar also. It would be more along the lines of a superceedure cell then it would swarm cells on the bottom of the combs.

    I am not questioning that you did not look well, just putting "my" experiences cause I am in the middle of what your are doing next and that is what I was seeing. The ideal of the queen excluder and big hive was that the cell would not be an emergency cell but more of a well fed superceedure cell.

    I do not know why it did not work but will be interested in any response this thread receives and thank you for letting me learn with you.

    I do hope for another report in a week if you are willing.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps I wonder if having a little sugar water on top would have changed the outcome?
    zone 5b

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Yes, I'm reading Doolittle right now and he describes exactly what I did. Perhaps a Cloake board approach, physically blocking the traffic below the box until the cells were drawn, then opening it up to finish them would have worked better.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    bjorn
    It could be lack of flow and just not as good as if done earlier. Cloakboard sorta losess the ideal of wanting to do it the way you did. This way makes it more the bees ideal and uses the biggness of the hive for feeding the cell and you would lose some of that with cloake board.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  9. #28
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Vertical splits are less reliable. Best used when the number of bees is too small to be using another method. It's strength is lack of disruption, it's weakness is lack of success.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Vertical splits are less reliable. Best used when the number of bees is too small to be using another method. It's strength is lack of disruption, it's weakness is lack of success.
    Are you suggesting a nuc as I described above may be more successful or that I should have taken the queen away and allowed the populous hive to requeen itself?

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Splitting off the queen and alowing the parent hive to requeen is almost always successful. If the parent hive is real strong, you can often make several additional splits with all the qc's they make. It is getting late in the season so any splits you make now will need some TLC.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #31
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    I'll see how the nuc works out next week. Depending on the number of QC's, I will decide how to proceed from there.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    Quote Originally Posted by bjorn View Post
    Are you suggesting a nuc as I described above may be more successful or that I should have taken the queen away and allowed the populous hive to requeen itself?
    Not really suggesting any method, saying what I see. All methods have their plus and minuses and that includes costs and rewards.

    For the salad bar of methods; http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdown
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  14. #33
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    Went in today and found about 8 cells on 2 different frames. I took each frame and placed it in a nuc, dividing up the capped brood and stores between them. I'll check them again in a couple weeks.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #34
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    It just dawned on me looking at these that there seems to be a ton of empty cells on these frames. They were pretty full of eggs when I transplanted them. I'm curious what happened to it. I would have expected a lot of capped brood on the frames. It has been brutal hot the last week... perhaps that contributed.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    bjorn
    Thanks for they report. I don't know on the eggs. How are the stores, is there still pollen in the hives?
    Good luck
    gww
    zone 5b

  17. #36
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    I've caught two swarms since starting this endeavor. So my plan for increase has been made easier by mother nature. Of course, they are in traps with no frames. It will be a cut out and rubber band install into frames. But, free bees are free bees... I'll take it.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    I never run traps with out frames. It is getting late and so you better go to the store and stock up on sugar. That is cool though.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    I think gww hit on the head. The bees may have cannibalized the brood if they don't have pollen or syrup. Always throw a piece of pollen patty in a split to be on the safe side. On ther hand, use a magnifying glass and look for dried up 1 day old larvae. Heat and not enough bees to cool the frame could be the culprit. They would have devoted all their efforts on the queen cells.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I never run traps with out frames. It is getting late and so you better go to the store and stock up on sugar. That is cool though.
    Cheers
    gww
    I won't again. It's my first attempt at trapping. 2 out of 4 traps is good in my book. I will improve the technique for next season. My boxes are rough with large cracks that I didn't think about having to sealing prior to being able to move them. No frames and they're mounted about 8 feet up screwed to trees. It will be an adventure but I find few things that are worthwhile are easy.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Increasing broodnest in preparation for post flow split

    I did the same thing early and honestly still have two screwed to trees. I also do it all by my self and holding a trap of stinging bees and taking them lose with a screw gun is hard. If you could get to them same day they come in, it is not so bad. Take it down, bang it on the ground and dump them in the box you want and then leave them below the tree till dark. No matter how you handle it, good luck
    gww
    zone 5b

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