The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics - Page 2
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 48
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    sorry if i missed it msl, but is there a description somewhere about how the started cells are packed and shipped?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    3rd photo in the sam link, Looks to be a jzbz battery box, layer of plastic, and the cups put in cell protectors.
    Joe Latshaw also shipped them face down in his experiment IIRR in a foam block with holes put in a plastic bag
    John Keffus ships them on there side in a foam block put in a bag http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/...ABJ2009-01.pdf
    Larry Conner transports them face up in a foam cup put in a bag http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/.../BC2012-06.pdf
    I don't expect shipping them to become the next big thing, but the fact they survive the abuse package monkeys throw at them suggests they should do well in a few hour ride in a climate controlled car with the genital handing a beekeeper will give them
    Last edited by msl; 02-15-2019 at 09:46 PM.

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    404

    Wink Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I don't expect shipping them to become the next big thing, but the fact they survive the abuse package monkeys throw at them suggests they should do well in a few hour ride in a climate controlled car with the genital handing a beekeeper will give them
    Gosh, I’m not sure anyone wants to read about genital handing and abusive monkeys. The see quite resilient, despite everything!

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Ha, dam spellchecker

    More from Sam yesterday
    Who would be interested in getting 2 day #queencells in the mail? Say $3 each? Shipped in a damp paper towel, no cover bees. Place them in a split to be finished. How bout if they were stock from Kirk Webster, or VSH, or Parks Italian, or Saskatraz, or Cordovan, or Ontario Buckfast? Just curious. Wouldn't be difficult to run 12 cellraisers to produce 1000/week. Let's change the queenrearing paradigm.

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    More from Sam yesterday...
    very interesting msl, thanks for the update. i can see how the damp paper towel would prevent dessication. i wonder how much and how long of a temperature drop the larvae can handle?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I am going to guess more then most think

    Quote Originally Posted by BWrangler View Post
    letting 24 hour old queen cells set unattended, in a cool place, for two days. The bees readily accepted these cells and raised normal, healthy queens from them. That's how robust they are.
    Sam writes
    The larval stage is the hardiest of the queen's whole life cycle. Cooler is better cause the slower metabolism means they'll eat less during travel.
    In Breeding Super Bees, Taber says
    Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    wow, and you are correct, i for one would never have thought that to be the case.

    i spoke with tpope last night and he is rotating grafts into a pair of cell builders at this time.

    i don't want to speak for t, but we spoke on the phone last night and i'm guessing he might be willing to ship some 2 day cells if someone has the splits to put them into...
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I think there are possibilities. But most of my customers want a mated queen. In a way makes sense. You are getting the queen lineage, but also a range of drone lineages as well. So is a tf queen is mated to tf drones, you get a bigger resistant package. But in a range of strategies it could be useful. I would like to see some queen performance work done on cells treated this way.

    I think the biggest obstacle to spreading of resistant genetics, tf or not, is the reluctance to use them and the lack of education of the underlying issues. There is no education about mite resistance in our local bee meetings. I think I'm the only person who presented some material. Even the bee inspector didn't mention it when she gave her talk. Then at the bc meeting, some yahoo presented the notion that tf was the biggest threat to beekeeping. That is what the idea of resistant bees is up against.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tallapoosa, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    616

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    wow, and you are correct, i for one would never have thought that to be the case.

    i spoke with tpope last night and he is rotating grafts into a pair of cellI made builders at this time.

    i don't want to speak for t, but we spoke on the phone last night and i'm guessing he might be willing to ship some 2 day cells if someone has the splits to put them into...
    I made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,112

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by tpope View Post
    I made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???
    Well, last night we had 25F.
    The next 10 days nightly temps are just above freezing by forecast.
    Days are 50F or below.
    So, of course I am afraid to take your little TF Georgia queen.
    We are just barely coming out of the winter up here to even think of 48hr QCs.

    Guys down there, we ARE really behind you by a couple of months.
    That's how it is.

    By the end of May, I might be interested though to test this out.
    2016 TF queen material is worth a try, even up here.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Layton,Utah
    Posts
    44

    Default

    made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???

    I would love to get my hands on something like that... but unfortunately my bees did not make it through the winter and I get to wait till I capture a swarm or my packages come!

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    404

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    No drones up here in Connecticut yet, though as I went through some hives I did see a few capped drone cells. Shipping 48 hour queen cells up north at this time wouldn't get us anything more than drone-laying queens.

    Now, as I type that, I realize that a well-organized system might be worked out in which it might not actually be a bad thing to have a TF drone laying queen (you'd need to supplement that colony with frames of capped brood & nurse bees, of course). You'd have your TF drones ready to take over your local mating congregation area. Later in the season, 48 hour queen cells could be shipped to you to be raised in splits and on emerging and taking their maiden flights, they'd be mated to the TF drones that are already flying...

    Anyone organized enough to accomplish this?

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Clinton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    442

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by tpope View Post
    I made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???
    I wish spring was far enough along to think about pulling nucs and mating. My bees are just starting to lay. I'm sure a few may lay some drone in the next week when weather really warms but those arent really colonies with genes which i want to widely spread either. Prefer them to stay hunkered down until the weather settles. It'll be a good 6weeks before I'd want queens mating and even then I kill off most of those early May queens and re-do them with queens mated in June as that's when our weather becomes much more predictable and i get way better long term results.

    I have used many finished cells shipped from across the country. They are ok. But have plenty of issues getting them in timely manner, having them overheat in transit, etc. Have also used a few 48 hour cells from one of the folks mentioned in this thread too but I hand carried those. I'd be interested to see how they ship. I'll have to see what he knows about practicality of shipping them.

    In past I've used the 2 day cells by placing them right into a queenless mating nuc of normal size but have also placed them into a full blown cell builder to finish sealing, etc. On one hand, you have the potential to get away with using less resources by letting a small nuc finish them up and then mate. However, I didnt really like the results compared to sealing them in a builder and then holding them until just prior to emergence. That option might not work for those of you with a few colonies but flip side is I don't have something sitting around queenless for 2-3 weeks either especially as we hit the June dearth and some robbing starts.

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackBirds View Post
    I'll have to see what he knows about practicality of shipping them.
    interested in the details of how this is done. please let us know what you find out.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Every one seems excited on the shipping..... kinda cool, but just proof that a few hour car ride is no big thing.

    We can't mail order in TF queens from other areas and expect them to work out well. No mater how good they are on their home turf they seem to fail when moved.
    Sure I would be exited for some exotic genetics, seems like us beekeepers feel the grass is all ways greener on the other side, and it sometimes is. And as Kinsey point out they are drone mothers regardless on who they mate with
    but I think the nuts and bolts here is that being so cheap and easy to make Vs the time and resrorces to make a mated queen they are ideal at the local and regional level as any one who has "something" can share if they chose.

    I think the down fall here is time, while they may be robust, they don't have a lot of time vs a mated queen in a 3 hole that can go up to 2 weeks, and when it comes to shipping time is money

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tallapoosa, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    616

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    We can't mail order in TF queens from other areas and expect them to work out well. No mater how good they are on their home turf they seem to fail when moved.
    So how do VSH, Perdue ankle biters, Minnesota hygienic and such work for folks?
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    So how do VSH, Perdue ankle biters, Minnesota hygienic and such work for folks
    They work well enough that they are a major topic on TF forums/websites and advice is often given people should order them?
    Harbo isn't selling any this year
    MH is gone, Spivak walked away from the line 10 years or so ago.

    Despite being kept TF the past 8 or so years at their home site, MBB when moved/outcrossed took 50% winter loss
    https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne16-836/
    "Winter survival for the Purdue MBB bees was 50% vs. the Control of 36%, or a mortality rate of 50% vs. 74%. This overwintering data could have been better if we used mite treatments in the hives when they were over the IPM threshold of 3%. But treatment was not allowed in this study."
    main issue with MBB is it isn't "there" yet as a product. best case for those of us out side of the area is a open mated queen who's mother was the producers line IIed with MBB drones, I will let you do the math about how much MBB genetics are left in the workers after you rear queens off the one you bought

    Don't get me wrong, Bringing in an II breeder from VP for $200 or so and crank out a few hundred 48s at $5 a pop, next year do a MBB, is defiantly in my head. But that's about a long game genetic landscape shift, not sink or swim TF
    This year is all foundation laying and prof of concept at the local club level

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Clinton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    442

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by tpope View Post
    So how do VSH, Perdue ankle biters, Minnesota hygienic and such work for folks?
    tpope: This is just opinion based on what I've seen over the years---

    the Minnesota bee was really designed by Spivak to find stock with hygienic traits following the old school liquid nitrogen tests that Cobey had been doing with carnis back at that time. we didnt know all that much about varroa back then but that testing produced lots of good traits regarding responses to brood diseases. all of that was great, i really appreciate it and look for that type of basic stock but its not so much aimed at surviving varroa (then). At one point in late 90's or early 2000, I used inseminated MN breeders and found them to be a solid bee when crossed out but the daughters were a little too "italian" for my liking which isnt really unexpected as Marla was working with a number of large migratory folks that just happened to use MN as a base. Not sure they did much to help me with varroa but I think they added to the mix of hygiene traits that I had originally sought in NWC's and I considered that a positive. My ancient notes say that untreated daughters only survived at about 50% which makes me think they didnt have much varroa resistance and survival was primarily driven off the smr/vsh/canadian stock drones. I didnt keep up with those bees much after that point but in following years both Marla and Sue added limited stock to the USDA program for vsh. I'm guessing Marla probably pulled it from Minnesota stock she had been working with.

    I don't have a ton of first hand use with Purdue stock in comparison. Alot of the attention for it seems to center around the grooming habits of the line in my opinion. Not sure where that trait orginally came from but I first saw it with russian stock 15 years ago. Folks in the know indicate that there might be more to the purdue line than just grooming and there are other varroa resistant traits at work. On the other hand I'm not 100% convinced as I know two folks with first hand knowledge/experience with the purdue program and both saw pretty strong losses with them untreated. I've not used an inseminated purdue breeder myself but have purchased cells produced from one locally and what I've seen with daughters is that they are a little too much "italian" and not really what I like for a northern bee. I currently only have a handful of colonies left headed by purdue queens but some of my mating places have nearby yards with 100% purdue stock which are being used by someone else strictly for drones sources. I'm ok mixing them into the stock and trying to keep some of the grooming habits within my bees.

    i'm biased with vsh. i generally know the science with it but mainly think of it in terms of first hand experience. there's few people around that have worked with it as much as i have going way back to the early 90's when the first survivor queens were identified. if you are looking for a level of resistance its your fastest option to get there in my opinion. however, there isnt really anything all that easy about trying to use that trait when you get to open matings and everything that entails. depending on your situation, you may be able to incorporate some of the selection trait into a local stock that has other qualities you like. if you are lucky you might be able to keep the resulting stock going but alot of that depends on how much ability you have to influence the total drone stock withing mating distance. for the general small backyard beekeeper, the best options seem to be to get a club, group etc together to buy a breeder and spread cells out to neighbors. i've used it so long that its pretty well incorporated into my bees. but also have the advantage that the same folks flooding their mating yard with purdue stock also switches up with vsh so even if my virgins are carrying the trait to begin with they pick it up on the drone side.

    bottom line--they all work to varying degrees. Two decades ago it was extremely difficult to find a colony that survived untreated, like 1 out of 500 colonies, now not so hard to find. But you may have to add genetic material on a regular basis (by way of cells is your best option) depending on the local environment and how isolated or not you are.

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Good post BBB
    tpope In rereading my post I see how it could be taken as a bit snippy, wasn't meant that way, I was in a hurry. BBB hit were I was going much better.
    What I was trying to convey is the 3 mentioned stocks are mite resistant lines, like Russians they are maintaining enocomtic traits, and are subject to failures. They are a starting place for a serious selection program , better then sunbelt almond bees. To me for a starting beekeeper the likelihood of failure is much higher then if they were to get some local TF stock that has already been threw selection for local adaption...

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tallapoosa, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    616

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Your answers tell me that I am on the right path. I am well aware that I need to dominate the local DCAs and that even genetic drift takes some time.
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •