The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Found the video with little difficulty. (add the word 'bee' after her name or you find an astrologer) Very surprised by the picture of a SHB tricking a bee into feeding it. Less so by the controversial one of a live mite on a dead bee. Both are apparently lucky photos as I have never seen or read of either.

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Yeah, the bees are benevolent jailers. They round up the SHB in little propolis corrals to keep them contained, but will feed them all summer long.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    From the perspective of the hobbiest beekeeper I imagine some of the difficulty in paying big money for a resistant queen is understanding the value.

    With folks constantly bombarded with marketing that promises much and delivers little and with results that appear to be less-than-repeatible I imagine many folks are reticent to pay the premium.
    While there is always some one wanting to blow Sunkist moonbeams up your butt, there are plenty of solid and well tested bees out there, priced about the same as any other or a few bucks more.. Are they TF in "your" area... unlikely, but that goes for almost any bee you can order.. But on a landscape scale, taking steps to insure they live and throw drones will likely pay dividends down the road. resistance leads to less treatments, better survival leads to less mite bombs and that means less mite pressure, meaning less Resistance is needed and TF becomes more successful. We are in a full blown pandemic, when it slows we will need bees with useful traits, and those bees will be able to survive with less resistance then they need now

    But people (hobbyists) buy bees in a frenzy panic that they will be sold out by jan and are willing to except what ever is available. Very few of them practice planed re queening, or bring in an order to stock nucs, when they need a queen its often an emergency and they will take what ever they can get.
    So almond bees rule the DCAs even in the areas with out the big boys, and will until locals chose to shift their genetics. In my area that just isn't going to happen with out a push.

    Last check on one site the guy 100' from me is down to 4 from 22 production hives mid summer. 2017 they took 100% loses.. before they arrived I was TF
    Post flow I treated and put wet combs on hives to clean out, instead they filled them ... any thought on were it was coming from in a dearth? bit of a waist all that TF honey contaminated, but I only had to feed the late splits in that yard now that's mite pressure ...
    I may have popped a lid or 2 this winter on non active boxs cause why not ... I have worked his hives as a favor in the past, read as put down yard wide robing as he got run off site by the bees and left dissembled hives open in a dearth an I got lit up stepping out of the truck to check mine (yes I did call 1st that time) he was going to "come back later, but if if i could fix it please do "
    this time... looking at a moldy capped honey in dead outs... I realty did think about calling and suggesting he take steps to save resources... but then, what bees are going to rob him out?.... oh.... never mind...short of AFB there isn't anything elce he hasn't "gifted" me, what is to lose, I expect a "weird" early spring flow
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  5. #64
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    In my area that just isn't going to happen with out a push.
    Interesting (and sobering) story, MSL. I am sorry to hear about your troubles with a neighboring beekeeper. In an overarching sense it seems obvious that education and advocacy are in order on a community scale, but what to do about some of the factors (i.e selling of packages coming off of pollination contracts) on a regional/national scale that are outside of our control?

    Ultimately I am left to conclude that I can only do the best I can with the proverbial hand I am dealt, which is why I admire your ambition to build something that will have more impact on a regional level.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  6. #65
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Very interesting news about 48 hr. QCs. Never would have guessed they are so hardy. But who are you going to get good queen cells from? I wouldn’t know who to trust. Anyone selling anything makes unverifiable claims and much of this is hard to observe without bias, let alone verify.

  7. #66
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    But who are you going to get good queen cells from? I wouldn’t know who to trust.
    At $5-$10 a pop what are you worried about? Its low risk, and possibly high reward.
    Option 1 Find a local beekeeper who graphs,has plenty of full sized production hives in the spring, and doesn't buy bees or swarm chase.
    Option 2 would be gather as many locals as you can and pick a few queens for next year based on mite counts
    Ultimately I am left to conclude that I can only do the best I can with the proverbial hand I am deal
    that is opposite of my point.. Tel Rehov has shown that beekeepers have been stacking the deck (importing improved genetics) for thousands and thousands of years.

    that leads to Option 3 You can for the price of 2 packages bring in a breeder queen. You just need 10 people willing to buy 6 cells each at $5 a pop. Easy enough to make that volume of cells in a single run with a 5 frame swarm box starter on a Friday night for Sunday pick up
    I am sorry to hear about your troubles with a neighboring beekeeper
    Albeit with smaller yards I know of 6 more beekeepers with in 1.5 miles, sure there are more then that. The burbs can be as bad as being near a commercial set up... maby worse as the commercials take better care of there bees.
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0142031
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  8. #67
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    that is opposite of my point.. Tel Rehov has shown that beekeepers have been stacking the deck (importing improved genetics) for thousands and thousands of years.
    MSL:

    I appreciate your perspective and I do think I understand where you are coming from on this- and it is hard to argue with your logic.

    Ultimately, should I personally find that the local swarm and trap-out stock I am working with is not up to snuff it seems plain to me that the only other sustainable alternative is to take control of either one or both sides of the genetic equation as you have advocated for.

    This is why I appreciate the opportunity to read about the experiences of folks who are approaching this problem from different angles, including this idea of community genetic improvement efforts.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  9. #68
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    yes, but lets not forget the flip side, you may find a golden goose!! And you will have the objective data to back it, % of chewed mites, etc
    Have a plan for what to do if you succeed, many have found the real deal, only to have lost it.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  10. #69
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    MSL:

    I appreciate your perspective and I do think I understand where you are coming from on this- and it is hard to argue with your logic.

    Ultimately, should I personally find that the local swarm and trap-out stock I am working with is not up to snuff it seems plain to me that the only other sustainable alternative is to take control of either one or both sides of the genetic equation as you have advocated for.

    This is why I appreciate the opportunity to read about the experiences of folks who are approaching this problem from different angles, including this idea of community genetic improvement efforts.
    As the drone offspring run true to the Queen Linage, one can affect the drone pool, in 1 or 2 ways , likely more.
    1) give away many of your best drone line 48hr cells to you neighbors at the bee meeting if each one can make 1 split then there are your drones out there all over.
    2)Take a spin to a breeder who's genetics you may want in your area, Pick up 20 48 hour cells split the trip costs 3-5 ways and several folks have 3 -5 queens with the drones you wish to use as a group, to bring vigor into your normal lines.


    As they get better at shipping, ordering 10 sam comfort cells , overnighted, suddenly becomes a viable option.
    As these can be shipped, then placed into to fall NUCs ,overwintered, survivors are drone mothers for spring breeding.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    How much jelly is left for the queen at arrival?
    You may get good genes in a relatively poor queen. Nothing wrong with that as long as you have a plan.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    yes, but lets not forget the flip side, you may find a golden goose!! And you will have the objective data to back it, % of chewed mites, etc
    Have a plan for what to do if you succeed, many have found the real deal, only to have lost it.
    MSL:

    Thank you for both the encouragement and the admonition. I can imagine the only thing worse than failure is initially succeeding only to lose whatever serendipitous mix of factors that worked initially. I have certainly tried to take your advice to heart to record as much data as I can in hopes it will be of some value in the future should it be necessary and/or beneficial to begin exerting some beekeeper-directed selection.

    Keep up the good work in bringing clarity to this issue of selection for resistance traits.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  13. #72
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    As the drone offspring run true to the Queen Linage, one can affect the drone pool, in 1 or 2 ways , likely more.
    Good point, Gray Goose. While I infer from my reading that there are some limitations to the influence that the drone has on the resultant genetics of a colony, the fact that they are a genetic copy of their mother seems to suggest that there are some important breeding advantages as a result. I suppose the moral of the story is that both sides of the genetic equation are vitally important...
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  14. #73
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    the fact that they are a genetic copy of their mother seems to suggest that there are some important breeding advantages as a result
    That is not true, but that's the internet for you.... likely a twisted version of the fact that drones spermatozoa are all the same(clones) do to being haploid.

    The drone gets 1/2 of his mother's genetics (16 out of 32 chromosomes) just like any other egg, There are 65,536 different chromosomal combinations for the queen to pass on to the egg, add in the recombination rate (witch is exream in bees) and its about 3.4 million combos (3,406,833)
    But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA (or 1/2 of the drones mothers dna if you will ) . So on the drone side there are only as many different combinations as there were drones that mated with the queen.

    This is why drones as a "filter" matter, to weed out poor combinations. As they are haploid there is no were for recessive genes to hide, they are expressed
    Last edited by msl; 01-20-2020 at 11:04 PM.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  15. #74
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    That is not true, but that's the internet for you.... likely a twisted version of the fact that drones spermatozoa are all the same(clones) do to being haploid.
    Thanks for the clarification, MSL. Sorry to sidetrack your thread. I see that this subject has been addressed extensively here on Beesource before:

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/arc.../t-316929.html
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  16. #75
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    .......But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA ........
    It this really true?

    I always thought of "one-father-per-an-egg" is generally true.
    Not "N-fathers-per-an-egg".
    (Discounting any imperfections, such as random re-combinations and such).

    For example, even the Wikipedia says "one-father-per-an-egg", if I understand this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_...Honey_Bees.svg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #76
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    It this really true?

    I always thought of "one-father-per-an-egg" is generally true.
    Not "N-fathers-per-an-egg".
    (Discounting any imperfections, such as random re-combinations and such).

    For example, even the Wikipedia says "one-father-per-an-egg", if I understand this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_...Honey_Bees.svg
    each drone has its own family with 16 you would have 16 patra line all a different combo unless 2 of the drones are "brothers"

  18. #77
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    each drone has its own family with 16 you would have 16 patra line all a different combo unless 2 of the drones are "brothers"
    You are talking of half-sister cohorts in the hive, I think.

    Well, this is different from:
    ....But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA .
    I can understand - "a fertilized egg MAY get UP to 16 paternal DNA sources intermixed" (due to re-combinations and such).

    But predominantly, this is still a single mother/father pair per each fertilized egg - I am pretty sure (unless some revolutionary changes rendered the Wikipedia obsolete).

    From the same Wikipedia article:
    The worker shares half her genes with the drone.
    See "Queen-worker conflict"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_...xes_and_castes
    Last edited by GregV; 01-22-2020 at 12:36 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #78
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    You are talking of half-sister cohorts in the hive, I think.

    Well, this is different from:


    I can understand - "a fertilized egg MAY get UP to 16 paternal DNA sources intermixed" (due to re-combinations and such).

    But predominantly, this is still a single mother/father pair per each fertilized egg - I am pretty sure (unless some revolutionary changes rendered the Wikipedia obsolete).

    From the same Wikipedia article:

    See "Queen-worker conflict"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_...xes_and_castes
    Greg, so with 16 drones , assuming they are all "Unique" One could have 16 daughter Queens and have 16 different genetic queens and yes step daughters if you will. Thats why Bro Adam did 100s of daughters looking for 10 to carry on with. Some crosses are not worth a &%@* for sideliners a bit of a problem to ponder.
    GG

  20. #79
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Greg, so with 16 drones , assuming they are all "Unique" One could have 16 daughter Queens and have 16 different genetic queens and yes step daughters if you will. Thats why Bro Adam did 100s of daughters looking for 10 to carry on with. Some crosses are not worth a &%@* for sideliners a bit of a problem to ponder.
    GG
    Well, exactly.

    But NOT have a single queen that simultaneously contains genes of the 16 fathers at once; or 20 fathers; or 25 fathers..... N fathers (a chance of that is approaching zero).
    A single fertilized egg == a single queen.

    And yet the statement deterministicly says exactly this:
    But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA .
    This statement means a single queen has 16 fathers at once.
    No?
    What am I still missing?
    What is the Google search string I am missing? (I did try).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #80
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Well, exactly.

    But NOT have a single queen that simultaneously contains genes of the 16 fathers at once; or 20 fathers; or 25 fathers..... N fathers (a chance of that is approaching zero).
    A single fertilized egg == a single queen.

    And yet the statement deterministicly says exactly this:

    This statement means a single queen has 16 fathers at once.
    No?
    What am I still missing?
    What is the Google search string I am missing? (I did try).
    you got it, the statement "But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA " is untrue, or false depending on your point of view.

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