The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    you got it, the statement "But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA " is untrue, or false depending on your point of view.
    OR - MSL has some magic fresh sci. article up his sleeve.
    Never know!
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    WTF yall?
    The drone gets 1/2 of his mother's genetics (16 out of 32 chromosomes) just like any other egg, There are 65,536 different chromosomal combinations for the queen to pass on to the egg, add in the recombination rate (witch is exream in bees) and its about 3.4 million combos (3,406,833)
    But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16)
    one missed apostrophe? realty guys?
    it should read "Drone's" (as in the father's, or sire's) 16 chromosomes.
    basic bee math here, Russ provided a great link to subject mater. And we know from modern DNA studys that queens mate with far more then 16 drones

    Rewinding to Salty
    How much jelly is left for the queen at arrival?
    I care less for shipping... plenty of ways to distribute genetics across state lines for a $$$... local distribution and use is very different.
    That said, most have been shipped in JZBZ cups (Latshaw, Comfort, Kefuses) so any issuse "should" have been seen
    You may get good genes in a relatively poor queen.
    and that good sir is the point of the sare grant, to answer the question of quality, while the experts claim you can make great queens this way.. no one has proved it in a large scale study, and what we "know" seem to change with such actions
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  4. #83
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    what we "know" seem to change with such actions

    And you get at my real pondering. On the face of it interrupting feeding would fly in the face of raising high quality queens. Must be a lesson in the the difference, though I have no idea what.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  5. #84
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    WTF yall?
    With your typing, MSL, never know what you meant.
    It can go either way.
    Sorry, but it is really hard to read and follow the thought, IMO.
    That is regarding the WTF.

    All right, I suppose, I better do my "paid for job", not try to follow the BS too much on the top.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    That is regarding the WTF.
    fair eunff it was late...
    but i kinda figgerd that at this point we had established the 16 chromosome thing

    On the face of it interrupting feeding would fly in the face of raising high quality queens
    it would "seem" while feeding is interrupted, eating is not as the larva is in a very large pool of jelly
    24 hour cells
    grafts-24hrs.JPG
    48 hour cells
    grafts-48-hrs.JPG
    Pictures form david laferney's offsite version of the Josef Clemens system http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/sim...for-beginners/

    You can see why the 48s were chosen over 24s for transport, the cup is almost full of jelly and the larva is still to tiny to even get close to eating it all in a few hours...
    but as I noted, I haven't seen results empirically tested as to quality, so intill that happens a bit healthy skepticism is a good thing.
    my "gut" says they are fine for a few hours out of a hive under beekeeper care, in a commercial package system full of box throwing monkeys (I worked in a sorting center one collage break) .... not so sure.
    Dr Latshaw took 60% losses on over night shipping (12 out of 20) and the cell builder tore down 3 of the 8 that went in a 25% sucess rate, however he did package differently then people who say they have had great success so there is likely room for improvement on that number
    however when driven about 30 min by a beekeeper, Latshaw saw a 95% success rate. This fits in nicely with my 20 min drive test that had 91% success rate
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  7. #86
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    fair eunff it was late...
    but i kinda figgerd that at this point we had established the 16 chromosome thing



    it would "seem" while feeding is interrupted, eating is not as the larva is in a very large pool of jelly
    24 hour cells
    grafts-24hrs.JPG
    48 hour cells
    grafts-48-hrs.JPG
    Pictures form david laferney's offsite version of the Josef Clemens system http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/sim...for-beginners/

    You can see why the 48s were chosen over 24s for transport, the cup is almost full of jelly and the larva is still to tiny to even get close to eating it all in a few hours...
    but as I noted, I haven't seen results empirically tested as to quality, so intill that happens a bit healthy skepticism is a good thing.
    my "gut" says they are fine for a few hours out of a hive under beekeeper care, in a commercial package system full of box throwing monkeys (I worked in a sorting center one collage break) .... not so sure.
    Dr Latshaw took 60% losses on over night shipping (12 out of 20) and the cell builder tore down 3 of the 8 that went in a 25% sucess rate, however he did package differently then people who say they have had great success so there is likely room for improvement on that number
    however when driven about 30 min by a beekeeper, Latshaw saw a 95% success rate. This fits in nicely with my 20 min drive test that had 91% success rate
    in having a conversation with one of the folks that has suggested shipping 48 hour cells, i was reminded that its not really about quality so much as way to move stock as i had similar question. you arent trying to make a powerhouse production colony. essentially just creating a drone mother to produce replica drones for mating.

  8. #87
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Exactly BBB. Take the shipping out of it for a min, One could drive 4 hours ,Pick up 10-15 48hr cells, drive back, install them in 10-15 NUCs and in 30 days be producing drones for a couple rounds of queen mating, to bring in traits best passed from the Drone side. The producer can do a frame of Bars every 48hours, mathematically optimizing the number of drone mothers to spread into the breeding programs within a 4-6 drive from his site. A georgia queen breeder could even truck 4-6 hives to Montana and produce 100s of 48hr cells in a few weeks and head back, at the end of the month. Once a suitable mailing/shipping method emerges, then shipping them can also work. "Maybe Drones" to deliver these would be practical, (Small airplanes)" I once spoke with a gal who Drove Horse Sperm from northern Michigan to Kentucky every monday, for insemination on tuesdays. She was making like 20-30K a trip. If the reason is there, moving these cells would be done by someone. Floating on the Royal Jelly seems to be a robust time in the life of a queen, maybe we figure out a way to make that work. It may catch on, be interesting to watch.
    GG

  9. #88
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    A georgia queen breeder could even truck 4-6 hives to Montana and produce 100s of 48hr cells in a few weeks and head back
    yuck
    Why, if its a time of year cells can be localy produced and used, would you not want to get 48s from a local producer of winter hardy, mite resistant, locally adapted stock.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  10. #89
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Feeding factor is one consideration and I am sure temperature and humidity would be another variable. It is suggested that exact temperature control is not critical either, but if it was controlled, as it easily could be in an a common incubator, the larvae might not be appreciably compromise at all.
    Frank

  11. #90
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    yuck
    Why, if its a time of year cells can be localy produced and used, would you not want to get 48s from a local producer of winter hardy, mite resistant, locally adapted stock.
    you could get what ever stock you wanted. BTW often northern folks have a place in the south where they take the breeder hives to get a head start on the year.
    I do not know the Why I am only discussing the how, WHY is up to someone else.

    GG
    P.S. who is the local producer in Montana, to send out 48HR cells? Maybe need a directory for that. ..

  12. #91
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Feeding factor is one consideration and I am sure temperature and humidity would be another variable. It is suggested that exact temperature control is not critical either, but if it was controlled, as it easily could be in an a common incubator, the larvae might not be appreciably compromise at all.
    Road trip with 12V incubator to Guelph or a plane ride
    GG

  13. #92
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Road trip with 12V incubator to Guelph or a plane ride
    you want them cool, not warm.
    P.S. who is the local producer in Montana, to send out 48HR cells? Maybe need a directory for that.
    the next yard over from the Georgia queen breeder in your example
    can't help you with Montana but at least 3 in Michigan selling cells... 48 or other wise... one is advertising Canadian Buckfast 48s
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  14. #93
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    "you want them cool, not warm."

    What is the optimal temperature then? Humidity? Light? I should have said under controlled conditions.
    Frank

  15. #94
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    you want them cool, not warm.

    the next yard over from the Georgia queen breeder in your example
    can't help you with Montana but at least 3 in Michigan selling cells... 48 or other wise... one is advertising Canadian Buckfast 48s
    where did you see the 3 in Michigan?
    thanks for the tip
    GG

  16. #95
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  17. #96

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    48 hour cells
    grafts-48-hrs.JPG
    I would neither buy or sell such poorly developed 48 h-cells. Nor use them, since bad feeding doesn't produce good queens.

    That's how those cells look like after 48 h and proper feeding:
    unadjustednonraw_thumb_8830.jpg

    unadjustednonraw_thumb_8831.jpg

    unadjustednonraw_thumb_8835.jpg

    Larvae swim in a puddle of royal jelly:
    unadjustednonraw_thumb_8848.jpg

  18. #97
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    How much food do the bees actually put in the cell after 48 hours?
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  19. #98
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    GWW, quite a bit, It takes about 5x the amount of bees to finish feeding a 48 then it took to make it

    Bernhard, I don't see a difference.. yes the nicot has a lot more plastic in the appliance making things look bigger/longer, but the wax rim past the plastic is about the same
    in the JZBZ picture we can see the larva has been well fed and has plenty of excess jelly in the cup. for sure I have seen bigger, arguably any difference could be cells being 2days old and being called 48s as is common ... ie 48s +-8 hours depending on when they were grafted and when they were pulled Ie grafted friday evening and pulled Sunday mid morning

    Crofter, in Breeding Super Bees, Taber says "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects" so likely close to that, but I don't think any one has worked out the "best" for this age group beyond dark,cool,damp.
    if refrigerated storage could extend there longevity it would be a boom... the ability to take to a weekend conference and hand out/sell on Sunday afternoon would be quite handy.
    Last edited by msl; 02-05-2020 at 11:49 AM.
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  20. #99
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Wow! " Taber says "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects" so likely close to that"

    I was thinking a parallel with "chilled brood" mortality. At the 48 hr. stage that obviously does not apply.
    Frank

  21. #100
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    msl
    GWW, quite a bit, It takes about 5x the amount of bees to finish feeding a 48 then it took to make it
    Thanks for answering my question.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

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