The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics
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  1. #1
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    Default The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    A bit of a rehash of another post I made in the queen breed section, but I feel it has very valuable implications to TF keepers and solving what I feel is a major pitfall in the movement, the lack of availability of local/regional resistant genetics…

    So the back story here is now that I have my numbers up, I am moving toward grafting to replace the majority of my queens with more resistant ones(not just mites, I have some chalk and EFB issues as well), My 1st attempt at grafting was poor… checking the grafts 48hours later 2 out of 9 took (#10 fell off the grafting bar, lol)
    So of course I want to regraft, but what to do with the 2 that were started… I would hate to “waist” them (in hind sight what am I wasting… 2 days of starter/finisher time? Not much realy) I recalled someone at one point talking about using unsealed queen cells susfully. So in a spur of the moment move I broke up an nuc that just didn’t seem to be growing out well and placed the cells in to what on later inspection looks to be weaker than intended 2-3 comb mating nucs….


    Picture below- grafted 5/5 placed 5/7 picture taken 5/9

    Not too shabby, so I decided to look in to what was out there on the subject of 2 day cells, There is more then I would have thought, coming from some very respected beekeepers
    Seems they are used in NZ over ruff roads as they are less susceptible to transport damage
    John Kefuss has been shipping them
    Larry Connor learned about them from Kefuss and started using them…. Even putting them (with no bees or heat) in his carry on luggage, and using them in his grafting classes so people can take their grafts home. He feels a 2 frame nuc is fine to finish the single cell and this is a powerful tool to distube genetics http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/...ABJ2010-10.pdf
    http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/.../BC2012-06.pdf

    Localy here on BS we see

    Quote Originally Posted by BWrangler View Post
    I've experimented with unsealed queen cells and found them to be much more robust than sealed queen cells. Once harvested they:
    - didn't require any temperature control.
    - were practically immune to transportation shock.
    - needed no attendants.
    - were readily accepted.
    I suspect they could successfully and easily be shipped almost anywhere.
    You can read more about my tests at:
    http://bwrangler.litarium.com/two-day-old-cells/
    One test not mention consisted of letting 24 hour old queen cells set unattended, in a cool place, for two days. The bees readily accepted these cells and raised normal, healthy queens from them. That's how robust they are.

    The idea of grafting on a Friday after work, then on Sunday tradeing/selling/swapping/buying cells over lunch at a group meeting, then coming home and placing the cells directly in to mating nucs on Sunday evening is an extremely exciting prospect.
    As is the ability to for very few people to cheaply/easily distribute better genetics in there area to those who started with commercial stock.

    Does anyone have info on Kefuss’ shiping methods?
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Msl
    Thanks for shareing.
    gww
    zone 5b

  4. #3
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I was a bit suprized at the lack of interest in this....but I guess I shouldn't have been
    John Kefuss and Sam Comfort are using them to make increase(you don't get much bigger in the TF world then them)
    Joe Latshaw and Larry Connor are working with them (you don't get much bigger in the queen breeding world then them)
    Giants in their field are pointing a way forward, and nothing but crickets

    As I have harped on in the past I view distribution of local TF stock as one of the largest hurtles to TF growing
    Latshaw seems to agree Distribution of improved genetics appears to the the weak link in the chain when it comes to propagating local queens form local stock -Bee Culture April 2011

    The other thing I harp on is select genetics Dee Lusby would seem to agree
    Now more than ever beekeepers must manage the genetics of the bees in their colonies if they hope to deal with these problems.The strongest tool that a beekeeper has for controlling colony genetics is the grafting needle ABJ Nov 1989

    This solves both... 2 day cells are fast cheap and easy for the producer and can be done small scale even by some one with just a few hives, and the end user does the heavy lifting of finishing and mating the queen (a drain on the producers resources) by just tossing the cells in to spits and it no more challenged then any other split, as they were going to split any way, both partys benefit and drive costs down.

    spit balling some numbers
    A nuc sized starter could kick out 30 or so (graft 40, 30 take) per run, even at a low ball 3 for $10 that's $100... kick out a batch for Friday evening pick up and a round for Sunday... that's $200 quick bucks to you, and 20 TF keepers off to a much better start. For what, 2 hours and a few styrofoam cups and JZBZ cell cups?
    Sounds like a good week for the small time keeper and a great week for local TF.

    do a run mid may to place in all the starts from packages that are going to want to superseded anyway, and another one towards the end of the flow when its time to induce a brood break/pull a nuc and go in to winter with a fresh queen that will explode come spring and winter bees razed by low partisized nurses

    I see the 48 hour cell as a **** or get off the pot acid test for the TF movement, excuses (time, number of hives, ETC) are out the door, a keeper with one hive could make these cells and make a difrance.
    If you have the "good stuff" we are all less for you not sharing. If your genetics are not up to stuff we are all less by you not supporting ($$) those that have it. Even if your stock isn’t the best, its likely better then the queens the came with package bees. . Imagine a cell swap meet trading some lemonade for some comfort or some survivor stock for some buckfast.

    We have a powerful tool sitting on the table, one that takes little resources, only slight motivation, and only a bit education and message shift.
    Who will pick it up and change the future?
    Who will support those that do?
    And who will dilly dally working alone, talk splits razing their own queens ,swarms, ferals, “roll the dice”, nature, etc and promote the failures of the past?

    Any way…. digging has produced more info
    here is Kefuss' set up for shiping 48 hour cells
    http://www.bluetoad.com/publication/...sue_id":19180}
    Joe latshaws work with them.. It's a bit degraded in the free format, but readabul if printed
    http://digital.beeculture.com/?issueID=19&pageID=31

  5. #4
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I like the idea. I have never had time to work on my grafting skills and never really got the hang of it. (I may be limited by some lifelong depth-perception eyesight issues.) I really haven't needed to graft because I only have 8-12 colonies and have just done reverse splits for queens. But the portability of the 2 day cells really opens up possibilities for trading within the bee club.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    knock off nicot sets are under $20 on ebay
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/110-Cell-Cu...4AAOSw6Jxa2Mlt

    Not going to lie the learning curve on grafting is kicking my but..... I am working on a cellpunch/cut comb set up using split cell holders that may work for 2 day cells....not ready for prime time yet
    Last edited by msl; 06-02-2018 at 07:26 PM.

  7. #6

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I think it more easy to spread good genetics like described by Josef Koller.
    Many don´t want to graft, so with the use of a common mating drone cloud location this project of Josef Koller could be a possibility and selection is more like in nature.

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...6357-Selection
    # 5

    The splits my co-worker created bred from the survivor queen we do not move as long as there are capped queen cells. They must be moved 200km.
    Open ones yes, and even better virgin queens which can be mated at my more isolated location.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    That's a selection/breeding program were the focse is on improving your stock The world (as show in this fourm) is filled with them, and has been for decades.

    What we don't see a lot of is distribution. The 48 hour cells remove all the reasons given as to why TF keepers are not sharing what they curantly have to improving the stock of those around them and improve the drone pool of ALL.

    The replacement of the AMM with Italian stock in the US shows us what needs to happen to shift gene pool.. Mass distribution and re queening for years with the original genetic source is what it took to drive the AMM genes out of the managed hives

  9. #8

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    That's a selection/breeding program were the focse is on improving your stock The world (as show in this fourm) is filled with them, and has been for decades.

    What we don't see a lot of is distribution. The 48 hour cells remove all the reasons given as to why TF keepers are not sharing what they curantly have to improving the stock of those around them and improve the drone pool of ALL.

    The replacement of the AMM with Italian stock in the US shows us what needs to happen to shift gene pool.. Mass distribution and re queening for years with the original genetic source is what it took to drive the AMM genes out of the managed hives
    The need to improve the stock is still there, for most people it´s the honey harvest and gentleness. No matter if tf or not. No matter hobbyist, sideliner or commercial.
    So in every tf breeding program this traits must be considered too or all beekeepers must become bee havers. That would be the end of the honey bee as it is now and we need the numbers for pollination. That´s why beekeepers shift to other more productive races, still, all races can be resistant if this trait of resistance is propagated.

    The distribution: I can only speak about my colleagues they only want tf stock if it´s ensured those will survive and there is a honey harvest. The ghost of the resistant africanized killer bees is still around so they believe the bees are too aggressive if they are resistant.

    The big breeders of tf stock: they want a business. Who can blame them?

    The above linked breeding program can be done with a group, not as a single breeder. But you need your neighbors to follow which is very hard.
    Last edited by 1102009; 06-03-2018 at 02:20 PM. Reason: some added

  10. #9
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    The 48 hour cells remove all the reasons given as to why TF keepers are not sharing what they curantly have ...
    says who?

    it's really no less time or resource consuming for me to hand you a 48 hour cell than for a ripe one.

    frankly, i would rather let my strong cell finisher feed those cells all the way to capping.

    some care has to be taken when transporting ripe cells, but anyone who has spent the night in a holiday express can do it.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #10
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    24 hour cells in the hand of most beekeepers just wouldn't work. Heck mated queens don't work half the time. What we need is more experienced beekeepers. Let the breeders breed. I hope someone will figure it out for the masses one of these days.
    Splitting a first year hive successfully https://youtu.be/ZfRTreQ-S9c

  12. #11
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    SP I see it as much less time and resources as it spends 1/5 the amount of time on the producers site

    A keeper with one hive could shake bees in to a swarm box make 48s and return the the bees 2 days later. You don't get much less time and resource investment on a small scale. With more hives of corse the economy of scale changes and one would want to run a dedicated queen less starter A nuc starter finisher will kick out 4-5X the amount of 48s vs finished. Less gear, less time, less bees and a rogue virgin in the finisher doesn't take out the whole batch (as just happen to me
    I am not so much suggesting changing what people (such as you self) who are set up for queen rearing are doing as much as what the end user is doing... if a good chunk of the people who got a few cells or a nuc from you or another long term TF keeper turned around and made ten or so 48s to share/barter in there local area, we start to improve the drone stock.

    The 48 removes the road blocks(real and perceved)..We see the beekeeper is the limitation not their amount of hives or gear, it's no longer "I can't offer queens/cells because I don't have blank" its "I won't offer queens/cells because I don't want to" and that's a very different dialog... can't Vs won't

    This limitation can be over come with education. Striping micro scale production of poratbul cells to the least resources/time/skill to drive the price down and enhancing availability.

    It seems crazy as its so against the convention , but at one point in resent history people felt you couldn't over winter nucs and that Palmer was nuts....
    We have Connor, Latshaw, Kefuss, and Comfort all suggesting this is a good idea with a long history and a sold track record.

    Tenn Bee they work just fine, maby better.
    look how they are used in NZ with places with hard access, make hive queenless and insert cell at the same time and drive away from the outyard. On a newbee level if they cap it they have accepted it its an easy check form the top to see if there is jelly in the jzbz cup(VS being cleaned out) with out having to even spread the frames. One less failure point as you know quickly and clearly.
    opens up the little guys still making splits and letting the bees raise a queen, but placing the 48 so the selected genetics it the 1st to emerge and take the reins very little extra education is needed and a much better result happens, this a great tool to stomp out puppy mill genetics on the local level

  13. #12
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Right. Now get everyone together and do it.

    No offense but in my experience with gurus like you mentioned above they are great about talking about it but not so great about really laying down hard facts and spreading that success around. As a new beekeeper I grew up on Webster, lusby, Kent Williams, bush, and other popular TF guys. Several of them I have tried their queens genetics or been to their yards. In my 15 years it has not been doing any good on the local level but hey it does sell I'll give it that.

    Right now if I can just get the locals to actually beekeep that would be an accomplishment.

    I love the idea but we all have other things to do and kids to feed and raise. The bees aren't going anywhere. Meanwhile I am selling nucs and queens and they kill em and come back for more blaming the neighbor who sprayed Roundup between the cracks in their concrete.....
    Splitting a first year hive successfully https://youtu.be/ZfRTreQ-S9c

  14. #13
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    in my experience with gurus like you mentioned
    bit of a stretch to put Larry Connor and Joe Latshaw in the same boat as other popular TF guys whos stock dosen't perform when moved don't you think?
    Joe's II commercial breeder queens go for $565 each, min order of 4, he is all ready sold out for 2018
    Larrys work more then speaks for its self

    Right now if I can just get the locals to actually beekeep that would be an accomplishment.
    yep.....The do nothing lazy beekeeping message is a huge issue, Its most definitely what attracted me to top bars and TF
    Last edited by msl; 06-03-2018 at 09:59 PM.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Larry while a brilliant guy has done what? Taught bees? Tried to create bees more resistant but failed? Sure he's is great where are his bees? He is a darn good teacher.

    Latshaw $525 that's not that bad for a breeder. Again where is the success, or rather the change. Anyone can sell an idea or bees.

    Brother Adam changed beekeeping by the development of truly tracheal mite resistant bees. That is what I want to see with varroa change we can see in our hives not on a page. We do the best we can and if the bees are cool with the way things are so am I.
    Splitting a first year hive successfully https://youtu.be/ZfRTreQ-S9c

  16. #15
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Brother Adam changed beekeeping by the development of truly tracheal mite resistant bees
    What happened to all the other non buckfast bees that are some how alive to day?
    Larry while a brilliant guy has done what

    Latshaw $525 that's not that bad for a breeder Again where is the success, or rather the change. Anyone can sell an idea or bees


    Check out Miel Carlota's history, they started with 5 hives, 12 years later they were the largest queen producer in the world, on top of being one of the largest honey operations running upward of 50,000 hives (depending on who you talk to), They made extensive use of 2 day cell.
    the largest queen producer in the world... using 2 day cells by the 10s of thousands for their honey production operation...not finished cells, not virgins, not mated queens... let that sink in.....(insert sarcasm) nothing to see here, move along
    Last edited by msl; 06-04-2018 at 10:36 AM.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    experiments shipping 2-day-old queen cells with no cover bees from FL to be finished by nucs in AZ. Worked great.
    -Sam Comfort
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BtuTwGeFZOC/

  18. #17

    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    -Sam Comfort
    experiments shipping 2-day-old queen cells with no cover bees from FL to be finished by nucs in AZ. Worked great.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BtuTwGeFZOC/
    In the early 70´s Ulf Gröhn took piece of comb from Brother Adams hives in southwestern England to Sweden. He traveled with boat over the North Sea. It took over three days before he was ready to make a graft.

    You don´t need two day old cells to spread varroa resistant material.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I can see some benefits to using 2 day cells in my own operation. I will be experimenting with this method this year. I could be encouraged to try shipping too.
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  20. #19
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    I'm surprised nobody has posted the problems with this method. Yes it works. Yes it is a reasonable way to raise queens. But it is NOT a good idea to use with production hives except with some methods of swarm control. The reason is that the colony is queenless for a minimum of 22 days which is 11 days for the queen to mature and at least 11 more days for the queen to mate and start laying. If you give a 2 day cell to a colony that is preparing to swarm, that colony will still swarm unless all other queen cells are removed. If given in the fall for requeening, too few winter bees may be produced by the colony resulting in a colony that either dies over winter or comes out of winter too weak to make a crop of honey.

    Would I still use 2 day queen cells in some conditions? Yes, but only with a good understanding of the objective and after carefully considering the effect on colony development.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  21. #20
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    Default Re: The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics

    yes, you use them differently then mated queens.
    Use them as what they are, started cells.
    The spam can of bees it takes to finish and mate out in a mini nuc is giving you a great ROI, and letting a queen prove out in a nuc before being put in to a production hive is a smart move, risking far less resources.

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