What should I do with this laying worker hive? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    grozzie2,
    good lesson in practicality.

    There is no general answer that is correct for a specific situation.

    Anybody going to suggest shaking a double deep out in front of 2 nucs?

    The first post was a "good amount of bees" "next to a hive doing well", really not enough to give long distance advice.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

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  3. #42
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    >No offense meant to those who are successful at using the frame of brood for three weeks method, but three frames of brood represents a nice nuc and a laying queen in about six weeks.

    It's a little bit of young brood and eggs. A very small investment in resources. It's not until you have full grown larvae that it's much of an investment in honey and pollen and work. A good queen can lay 3,000 eggs a day (Jan Dzierzon, Rational Bee-Keeping, 1882 English edition, Pg 18) so the donor colony will lose a day or two in time, but the queen will quickly replace the missing eggs. The limits on brood in a colony are about labor and resources. I agree it's not worth the effort if the hive isn't in your backyard and probably not worth the effort if you have very many colonies, but for a hobbyist who wants to "mess around" with the bees every weekend and only has a few hives, it may be well worth the effort. Not to mention the chance to learn to understand more about laying workers. The main thing NOT to do is waste money and queens on a laying worker hive.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  4. #43
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    It is not just a question of effort (well for multiple hives it may well be), it is a question of risk. Back yard ( and it is most often back yard asking the question) is often two, maybe three hives. Shakeout makes no sense to me in that case. Risk is then the priority not effort. If effort is the true priority with a few hives, then buy honey. Then it becomes a question of reducing effort.

    Shakeout in a urban setting, no way, just the cloud will freak somebody out, you do not need that.

    When there is a strong flight path (row of trees , fence) moving the hive directly behind the good hive will get you some amount of drift. Simply moving the hive 150 feet (more work to me than disassembling the hive over a week or so) without the shake out will slowly drift a majority of field bees.

    Pulling all the stores and putting above the good at least stops the drone rearing from eating everything. A few initial frames of bees and brood placed on the outside of the added box and separated from any other brood frame seams to wimp out the transferred bees. No brood frames to lay in forces the LW to use the same cells. It seams like it takes about 3 days to settle things down enough to repeat moving frames. Number and speed of transfer is an eyeball thing based on size and reaction. Screen , paper etc is just a modification.

    I think of it as a slow semi-controlled combine rather than an instant combine or trying to save the the hive. A LW hive has already lost it's proper social structure and to me it is just pieces to save, it is already dead as a functioning hive.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  5. #44
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    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    It's a little bit of young brood and eggs. A very small investment in resources.
    Okay, so you add a little bit of brood and eggs. To a laying worker colony. Think about it...the bees in the LW colony are old. Surely too old to be proper nurse bees. And they are going to raise your replacement queen. Really? Well maybe, but to what end? A sub-standard queen in a colony that won't make the winter. Why bother.

    Sorry, but when I see rubbish advice I say something.

  6. #45
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Think about it...the bees in the LW colony are old.
    after this was pointed out to me i pretty much became a shake 'em out kind of guy.
    'no wise man has the power to reason away what a fool believes' - the doobies

  7. #46
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    > Surely too old to be proper nurse bees.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterq...0Good%20Nurses

    "Again some have told me that old bees cannot nurse as their milk glands dry up. I maintain such a statement erroneous. Many have observed that bees returning from the fields could not nurse. Of course not, for they were acting as fielders and not prepared to nurse. I will wager (a dime is my limit) that if these same bees were given several frames of unsealed brood, they would soon change from fielders and become nurses. Some of the brood might perish, for this was thrust upon them with no warning. But they would at once put on the white aprons and white caps with red crosses on them, take a hurried course in nursing, and in two or three days could show those younger bloods how to nurse. In a few days should you remove all the brood and give them grafted cells, they would do excellent work. Now just what are the requirements when taking this course in nursing? They devour pollen and honey in abundance and soon begin giving milk.

    "I have given a frame containing eggs only to a colony that had been queenless and broodless for some time. The bees removed many of the eggs as they were not nurses. Then they concentrated on a few and built a few very small queen cells. The eggs were given to them on too short notice for them to become nurses. Had they been given three day's notice they would have taken a course in nursing and would become competent nurses.

    "I have taken queenless and broodless colonies that had been in that condition so long that I was afraid laying workers would develop, and have introduced a laying queen. The presence of this laying queen served notice on them that they must take a course in nursing. This they did by eating pollen as has been stated and in three days, when the eggs began to hatch, they fairly flooded the cells with bee milk to such an extent that one might believe they were going to make queens out of the whole lot!

    "Probably in a normal colony the bees do the work best fitted to their age but, as stated, they can do any work required after they are ten days old. In the far North in the spring many bees would be six months old and all would be at least four months old. These old bees do a better job of nursing than the young ones that come latter, for European Foul Brood seldom attacks the first cycle of brood, while later, after the old bees are gone and the young nurses take over, European Foul Brood develops. This would prove that the old bees are better nurses."--Jay Smith, Better Queens

    By the time you have given them three weeks worth of eggs, there are some nurse bees, there are even some newly emerged bees by that time as well as the old bees that have reverted to nursing.

    >Shakeout in a urban setting, no way, just the cloud will freak somebody out, you do not need that.

    The "cloud" will be gone in minutes. They quickly settle down and move into a colony.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  8. #47
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    The "cloud" will be gone in minutes. They quickly settle down and move into a colony.[/QUOTE]

    But the neighbors won't be gone, especially the ones with the pool.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    the discussion continues: no you can , yes it does , no it won't, seen it twice.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by vdotmatrix View Post
    the discussion continues: no you can , yes it does , no it won't, seen it twice.
    If I wanted a set of rules to follow, I would play golf. If I wanted honey, I would buy it at the farmers' market. If I wanted easy, I would raise chickens. If there was a manual for beekeeping, I wouldn't be a beekeeper. For me, it is about discovery and experimentation. It is what keeps the hobby interesting, and the beekeeper humble.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    >But the neighbors won't be gone, especially the ones with the pool.

    What does a pool have to do with a shakeout?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #51
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Michael,

    You are thinking in terms of bees, there I do not think we differ significantly. I am thinking in terms of neighbors. Neighbors with pools are just more likely (and not without some basis in terms of a nuisance) to be ready to find a reason to get upset.

    No, I do not think every neighbor will react to a shake out (and no I do not think you object to shakeouts as one of many choices) but keeping a low bee profile is not a bad idea.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  13. #52
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    Ozark, AL
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Michael,

    You are thinking in terms of bees, there I do not think we differ significantly. I am thinking in terms of neighbors. Neighbors with pools are just more likely (and not without some basis in terms of a nuisance) to be ready to find a reason to get upset.

    No, I do not think every neighbor will react to a shake out (and no I do not think you object to shakeouts as one of many choices) but keeping a low bee profile is not a bad idea.
    All you have to do is train your bees to stay in their own yard and leave the neighbors alone.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundhwg View Post
    All you have to do is train your bees to stay in their own yard and leave the neighbors alone.
    Some neighbors are just as hard to train to keep their noses on their side of the fence.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  15. #54
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    May 2015
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    Columbus, Georgia, USA
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    delete
    Last edited by Qvox; 05-22-2018 at 06:17 PM. Reason: dupe

  16. #55
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    Default Re: What should I do with this laying worker hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by vdotmatrix View Post
    the discussion continues: no you can , yes it does , no it won't, seen it twice.
    The only thing I can say with any authority is, no I can't or, yes I can.

    ...and even then sometimes I'm wrong.

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