Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Control - Page 3
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 72
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    We should stop treating malaria, people will eventually evolve out of it.
    But mites aren't the same as malaria. If we knew that there was no adaptive possibilities, then I would chalk it up to another example where people messed up something good. BTW when small pox came to north america, indigenous people were horrifically affected and a genetic bottleneck occurred with the survivors carrying on. A terrible example that it even happens with us.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,549

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Siwolke said:”It would be a good thing to have a control of the mite impact and act accordingly, but it must go in the direction of breeding and multiplying the more resistant and tolerant. ”

    The beekeeping industry has been trying to do that for 30 years or more. The problem is keeping those good traits with the honey bee. They swarm and these traits are diluted over time. Location makes a difference too; where I live most packages are brought up from the same area, S. Carolina, and Georgia. I have to say most migratory beekeepers in this area are down in South Carolina for the winter and bring their packages up from there, or other non-migratory beekeepers travel down and pick up hundreds of packages and sell up here, so genetics are sort of bottle-necked. Everyone around here buys those bee’s. Year after year this is done. Having a sustainable apiary is good; you save money, and some of it can be spent on importing queens that are being bred for VSH or tolerance, and get those genetics in your apiary and surrounding area by swarming. As per Tom Seeley 20% of swarms will live and make it over the winter, so then my queens can mate with them.
    Proverbs 16:24

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ardnamurchan and Fife, Scotland
    Posts
    175

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Malaria was the selective pressure that led to the sickle cell mutation in human haemoglobin ... we haven't 'evolved out of it' but those carrying the mutation are more resistant to malaria.

    Of course, as with many other examples, the (partial) resistance comes with its own problems ... heterozygotes have the advantage against malaria, homozygotes develop sickle cell anaemia, with reduced longevity, long-term pain, bacterial infections and swelling of the hands and feet.

    We may be able to select bees with increased tolerance to Varroa but they may have other detrimental traits as a consequence - like the increased tendency to swarm described by Seeley in his studies of survival of large and small colonies.
    The Apiarist - beekeeping in Fife, Scotland

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,856

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Are you sure about that? Energy is what powers all life. High production is energy stored.
    yes I am sure, as you said
    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    the winners in the competition to influence the next generation are those individuals who use the present resources to most efficiently turn the available energy into viable offspring.
    Nature select’s for bees that make the most offspring and low production. A large surplus of left over honey come spring is wasted energy that could have been offspring.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Nevertheless, in the other direction, to make the population weaker, it has also worked, at least in my area, the hobbyists and sideliners ( no commercial big enterprise here) have achieved that.
    I can’t speak to your area, in the US mass propagation of non-resistant stock do to other traits being considered to have more value is the problem. The way you fight that is mass propagation and distribution of resistant stock…

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    The beekeeping industry has been trying to do that for 30 years or more. The problem is keeping those good traits with the honey bee. They swarm and these traits are diluted over time.
    The beekeeping industry hasn’t.. if they had dilution would not be as big an issue. If all the queen breeders in the US made mite restiance the primary criteria there would be no mite problem
    but as fatshark says
    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    We may be able to select bees with increased tolerance to Varroa but they may have other detrimental traits as a consequence - like the increased tendency to swarm described by Seeley in his studies of survival of large and small colonies.
    Yes and in the weaver program it came with increased EFB and chalk sestibuilty that then had to be sorted
    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    Pruning by nature is hard when it needs to. Assays for hygienic behaviour accelerates what nature is doing for those diseases that are selected against
    Not it the least, with FBA you are picking traits that are highly expressed far above the average and propagating them so the off spring for a few generations will express it at a higher level then average. I have an EFB hive I just requeened, it was still making drones and some swarm prep, nature was not selecting against it hard enuf…
    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    As far as mites are concerned, if we knew exactly what we were looking for
    But we do know, Kefues has led the way with others, resistance to mite build up not tolerance of high might levels has been what has worked. Keep the virus down.

    John slected based on FBA, and mite counts If we look at this chart form
    Selection for resistance to Varroa destructorunder commercial beekeeping conditions
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...9.2016.1160709

    We clearly see at what mite level mites removed hives from the program….
    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    just read the site of Olympic Wilderness Apiaries (http://wildernessbees.com/) who had N. ceranae sweep through their mostly tf operation. Nature selected hard for 2 years
    Maby re read the web site…. It wasn’t nature that shifted the stock, they grabbed a microscope and started counting spores and grafted form those with the lowest counts and backed it up with USDA lab testing…
    http://wildernessbees.com/2017/04/22...tion-criteria/
    "We graft from untreated colonies whose queens have been overwintered for a minimum of one season, and have passed our strict standards for these following traits:
    Hygienic Behavior-Minimum of 95% removal of freeze-killed brood in 24 hours This trait will reduce or eliminate Chalkbrood; AFB; and varroa mite levels w/o the use of chemical treatments
    Varroa Mite ResistanceVSH trait is determined by Alcohol Wash Assay during spring brood build-up and fall peak mite infestation.
    Grooming Behavior is determined by Alcohol Wash Assay during the winter broodless period

    Nosema Tolerance
    Demonstrate vigor with high exposure: UNTREATED.
    Our selection process is verified by in-house microscopic testing and USDA Laboratory reports
    .
    Hoarding Behavior Excellent Honey producers Heavy pollen collectors
    Gentleness No need for gloves
    Swarming Behavior Not prone to swarm
    High Degree of Longevity & Solid Brood Patterns"
    once again, highly selected breeder queens and grafting, not "nature"

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    That is why TF backyarders are important. To ramp up the scale of selection
    Not in the least, LOL
    The issue is its only negative selection, to move forward positive slection is needed, positive traits need to be mass propagated so they aren’t lost by being diluted to non-expression f1-f2. But that’s not what is happing. Even if the backyarded finds something great, they sit there, maby make a replacement split or 2…. And then its lost in the outcrossing…peeing in the ocean

    Now the same backyarder takes mite counts, knows he/she has something specical, maby gets together with another backyard keeper and grafts and passes out 100 queens cells to the neighbors for the next 3 years… NOW your enacting change..... but thats not what TF backyard keepers are told to do to "save the bees"

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    That is why education about using local bees and having regional self sufficiency is important.
    I agree
    Step one is keeping enuf bees alive to keep the region self sufficient. Keeping a f1+ out cross alive is prefurbul to the importation of another package, even if it takes treatment
    Step two is adopting objective selection metrics
    Step 3 is mass propagation and disturbtion of the top performers

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    So who should change? An person who is trying to shift the system to something more sustainable long term, or people who ignore ecological principles?
    The people such as you self who ignore the basic principles of stock selection and propagation are the ones that need to change.

    “nature” “adaption” “regression” and all the outher BS that is being spread needs to change…

    The message to backyarders need to be
    #1 they are a consumer of TF stock, not a producer
    #2 They need to montor there mites, work with bee/mite biology to give there stock a leg up
    #3 All traits fade in outcrossing and is to be expected… and when the counts say the traits have faded they need to stop the mitebomb and protect there stock till a local mite resistant replacement queen can be brought in.

    Stop the influx of outside gentnicts and give locals a $$ reason to graft some good queens for sale.

    Like most things $$$$ is what will create change, a market for restanct stock need to be created, and at the moment much of the TF movement is doing the opposite.

    backyard bond is driving the importation of packages

    The anti mite count message means al TF people see is dead/alive. They don’t see one line doing better to the point maby a spring split and drone culling might be eufff to get them threw, so they don’t see the value in a local restiacant queen that may be a few $$ more and they may have to wait a bit later in the year to get.

    The failure to recognize that keeping a local out cross alive with a treatment is preffabul to a new spring package. Is a huge mistake. Much better if you requeen form local stock… you now have a laying queen to build up your hive in the spring and feel you can afford to wait the extra weeks for local queens to be avaibul

    The above reasons is why I feel a good chunk of the TF movement is cutting off its nose to spite its face.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,549

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Whew, that was almost too much to take in; so what I gather from your discourse (and just a little disagreement) is:

    1- have an IPM management plan and treat accordingly
    2- we ALL (beekeepers) have a responsibility to take care of our bees and
    3- not anthropomorphisize bees with human conditions
    4- varroa arrived here in 1990? I am sure breeders started around then to breed for resistance, hygenic behavior, etc. So maybe 25 years.
    5- a good amount of beekeepers need to educate themselves on varroa. I had the priviledge of hearing “soon to be Doctor” Samuel Adams and his presentation on varroa. If you had seen the slides he presented of varroa eating and depleting the fat body of a honey bee you would never be treatment free again.
    6- mite bombs exist, collapsing hives usually abscond and find another hive to live in, ours.
    7- there needs to be a program to have good genetics available easily and not cost hundreds of dollars to buy one queen.

    There was much info there MSL, thanks for the time you put into it.


    Your quote from Randy Oliver is succint.
    Proverbs 16:24

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,856

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    1 Yes, but the foundation, and most important part of IMP is resistant stock, and that's often missed
    3 Some did/do but not at a unified scale eunff to shift the pool past the areas they have drone domination on . The market isn't there, that our fault as beekeepers for not buying there stock and filling the air with drones form it
    5 he is comeing to CO in june...thinking about making the drive
    6 Mite bombs are a robing event of a collasping hive with the robbers bring mites back home, simple education about entrance reducers/robbing screens could help shift the impact. Absconding some times happens, but more often if bees flying off to die till there is nothing left. I haven't seen much work pointing to mite bomb bees ending up in the other hives, the sluction would likely be the same, robbing screens
    7 Yes and no I don't see the cost of a good breeder queen changing much.. In the 1860s Italian queens were going for $20, a bit over $300 in todays money.... no suprize queen rearing texts started appearing at that era.
    The problem as i see it is there is little market for the offspring of such. People don't seem willing to by a $40 queens with better tratis then $25-$30 run of the mill.
    I think what we need more of is what Meghan Milbrath did to get the ball rolling in her area. She took her local virgins(from 2 year TF queens) to Purdue for II with ankle biter stock and made those breeder queens available for the cheap price of $150, the catch? The buyers had to make 100 queens form it available for sale... That's how you shift the drones of an area!

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,549

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Definitely make the drive to hear Samuel Adams. We drove around 2 hours to hear him. It was so worth it. We have NY BeeWellness here in NY, and Pat Bono (founder) does workshops here every year. She gets good people to learn from; Randy Oliver (twice), Megan M., Al Avitable, Peter Borst, Aaron Morris (he runs the Bee-l email fotum) plus more. All excellent workshops. This year Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk will be the *star*. We are lucky to have this program. As for Megan, what a great idea! I would buy some.
    Proverbs 16:24

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    Malaria was the selective pressure that led to the sickle cell mutation in human haemoglobin ... we haven't 'evolved out of it' but those carrying the mutation are more resistant to malaria.

    Of course, as with many other examples, the (partial) resistance comes with its own problems ... heterozygotes have the advantage against malaria, homozygotes develop sickle cell anaemia, with reduced longevity, long-term pain, bacterial infections and swelling of the hands and feet.

    We may be able to select bees with increased tolerance to Varroa but they may have other detrimental traits as a consequence - like the increased tendency to swarm described by Seeley in his studies of survival of large and small colonies.
    But swarming is what feral bees do. He noted that life history characteristics of Arnot bees were largely unchanged. Yet we know a genetic bottleneck also occurred. So its not just about swarming. We also have examples of people maintaining productive tf bees over time. Keufus is not interested in resistant bees that don't do anything. He selects for production.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    yes I am sure, as you said


    Nature select’s for bees that make the most offspring and low production. A large surplus of left over honey come spring is wasted energy that could have been offspring.



    I can’t speak to your area, in the US mass propagation of non-resistant stock do to other traits being considered to have more value is the problem. The way you fight that is mass propagation and distribution of resistant stock…


    The beekeeping industry hasn’t.. if they had dilution would not be as big an issue. If all the queen breeders in the US made mite restiance the primary criteria there would be no mite problem
    but as fatshark says

    Yes and in the weaver program it came with increased EFB and chalk sestibuilty that then had to be sorted

    Not it the least, with FBA you are picking traits that are highly expressed far above the average and propagating them so the off spring for a few generations will express it at a higher level then average. I have an EFB hive I just requeened, it was still making drones and some swarm prep, nature was not selecting against it hard enuf…

    But we do know, Kefues has led the way with others, resistance to mite build up not tolerance of high might levels has been what has worked. Keep the virus down.

    John slected based on FBA, and mite counts If we look at this chart form
    Selection for resistance to Varroa destructorunder commercial beekeeping conditions
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...9.2016.1160709

    We clearly see at what mite level mites removed hives from the program….

    Maby re read the web site…. It wasn’t nature that shifted the stock, they grabbed a microscope and started counting spores and grafted form those with the lowest counts and backed it up with USDA lab testing…
    http://wildernessbees.com/2017/04/22...tion-criteria/
    "We graft from untreated colonies whose queens have been overwintered for a minimum of one season, and have passed our strict standards for these following traits:
    Hygienic Behavior-Minimum of 95% removal of freeze-killed brood in 24 hours This trait will reduce or eliminate Chalkbrood; AFB; and varroa mite levels w/o the use of chemical treatments
    Varroa Mite ResistanceVSH trait is determined by Alcohol Wash Assay during spring brood build-up and fall peak mite infestation.
    Grooming Behavior is determined by Alcohol Wash Assay during the winter broodless period

    Nosema Tolerance
    Demonstrate vigor with high exposure: UNTREATED.
    Our selection process is verified by in-house microscopic testing and USDA Laboratory reports
    .
    Hoarding Behavior Excellent Honey producers Heavy pollen collectors
    Gentleness No need for gloves
    Swarming Behavior Not prone to swarm
    High Degree of Longevity & Solid Brood Patterns"
    once again, highly selected breeder queens and grafting, not "nature"


    Not in the least, LOL
    The issue is its only negative selection, to move forward positive slection is needed, positive traits need to be mass propagated so they aren’t lost by being diluted to non-expression f1-f2. But that’s not what is happing. Even if the backyarded finds something great, they sit there, maby make a replacement split or 2…. And then its lost in the outcrossing…peeing in the ocean

    Now the same backyarder takes mite counts, knows he/she has something specical, maby gets together with another backyard keeper and grafts and passes out 100 queens cells to the neighbors for the next 3 years… NOW your enacting change..... but thats not what TF backyard keepers are told to do to "save the bees"


    I agree
    Step one is keeping enuf bees alive to keep the region self sufficient. Keeping a f1+ out cross alive is prefurbul to the importation of another package, even if it takes treatment
    Step two is adopting objective selection metrics
    Step 3 is mass propagation and disturbtion of the top performers



    The people such as you self who ignore the basic principles of stock selection and propagation are the ones that need to change.

    “nature” “adaption” “regression” and all the outher BS that is being spread needs to change…

    The message to backyarders need to be
    #1 they are a consumer of TF stock, not a producer
    #2 They need to montor there mites, work with bee/mite biology to give there stock a leg up
    #3 All traits fade in outcrossing and is to be expected… and when the counts say the traits have faded they need to stop the mitebomb and protect there stock till a local mite resistant replacement queen can be brought in.

    Stop the influx of outside gentnicts and give locals a $$ reason to graft some good queens for sale.

    Like most things $$$$ is what will create change, a market for restanct stock need to be created, and at the moment much of the TF movement is doing the opposite.

    backyard bond is driving the importation of packages

    The anti mite count message means al TF people see is dead/alive. They don’t see one line doing better to the point maby a spring split and drone culling might be eufff to get them threw, so they don’t see the value in a local restiacant queen that may be a few $$ more and they may have to wait a bit later in the year to get.

    The failure to recognize that keeping a local out cross alive with a treatment is preffabul to a new spring package. Is a huge mistake. Much better if you requeen form local stock… you now have a laying queen to build up your hive in the spring and feel you can afford to wait the extra weeks for local queens to be avaibul

    The above reasons is why I feel a good chunk of the TF movement is cutting off its nose to spite its face.
    A survival field test was initiated in 1999 to observe the effects of no treatment against Varroa destructor on European honey bee colony survival. After losses of over two-thirds of the 268 original colonies, new colonies were made from the survivors. In 2002, genetic material from these survivors was bred into an independent group of 60 colonies. In 2013, 519 non-treated colonies from both groups were being used for commercial beekeeping, and mite populations were very low. This indicates that under commercial beekeeping conditions, simple methods can be used to select for reduced mite populations.

    This is the abstract that explains your graph. It was natural selection that did the work.

    Re N. ceranae: They may have grabbed a scope, but they allowed nature to do the majority of the pruning. They chose not to treat and lost 90 percent 2 years running. Why is that not important in your eyes?

    Colonies that come down with Nosema or EFB are either not reproductive or do not survive the winter. That is likely the reason Seeley found feral bees pretty healthy in regard to brood disease. If I prune out non productive hives, I am also doing the same thing. It should be noted that competitive forces between colonies can do the same thing. Weak colonies are often pillaged and destroyed by stronger ones during a dearth.

    There may be things going on under our noses that we don't see, but if we follow basic rules, we can preempt many problems. So your conception of nature only using negative selection is in error. Reproduction requires production. To the strong go the spoils, at least in this case.

    The mantra is TF is to use local stock or otherwise resistant stock to start off with and to develop local stock, catch swarms. There is always that person who doesn't understand anything, and makes the same mistake time and time again. But again its the problems associated with the movement of bees that is high risk and this is not even considered to be a problem with most treating keepers. I have never heard once at my local bee club the need to be self sufficient locally in bees and to avoid packages.
    Last edited by lharder; 05-06-2018 at 05:46 AM.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    This has developed into a useful conversation, and I'm pleased to see msl working up his case. So far however there has been a failure to identify the single biggest cause of the failure of US beekeeping to overcome vulnerability to varroa and all that brings.

    That is of course the systematic removal of selective pressure via treatments. For as long as beekeepers think they - personally - can do better commercially through simple systematic treating, the problem will continue, and the vulnerable genetics artificially dominate the gene pool.

    That's pretty much common knowledge now, yet it is also something of a taboo issue. It shouldn't be.

    Msn writes (in reply to me)

    "Nature select’s for bees that make the most offspring and low production. A large surplus of left over honey come spring is wasted energy that could have been offspring."

    In nature a large spring surplus is what makes a large spring colony ready to do business. In robbing winter-weakened colonies, in raising a large foraging force, and in reproductive terms. Whether that is swarming or just raising a large drone population, the means is the same: it is the surplus that powers the colony in preparation for the year ahead.

    Nature selects for high energy storage on that basis, and through that mechanism. Nature does not waste energy. See my previous post: energy is the ultimate object under competition in evolution.

    That is one of the most powerful things you can say about life itself.

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,856

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    This is the abstract that explains your graph. It was natural selection that did the work.
    and we are done here.
    not my graph.....Keufus'
    from the same sorce
    Genetic material was exchanged back and forth between these two independent test populations on an irregular basis by requeening with queen cells and virgin queens from the best 1–5 colonies in each group throughout the field test. Low mite levels and general colony performance such as the ability to rear high-quality queens and honey production determined selection of the breeding material.
    a whole lot of natural selection (insert sarcasm)
    once again highly select breeder queens and grafting shifts the stock

  13. #52

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    This has developed into a useful conversation, and I'm pleased to see msl working up his case. So far however there has been a failure to identify the single biggest cause of the failure of US beekeeping to overcome vulnerability to varroa and all that brings.

    That is of course the systematic removal of selective pressure via treatments. For as long as beekeepers think they - personally - can do better commercially through simple systematic treating, the problem will continue, and the vulnerable genetics artificially dominate the gene pool.

    That's pretty much common knowledge now, yet it is also something of a taboo issue. It shouldn't be.

    Msn writes (in reply to me)

    "Nature select’s for bees that make the most offspring and low production. A large surplus of left over honey come spring is wasted energy that could have been offspring."

    In nature a large spring surplus is what makes a large spring colony ready to do business. In robbing winter-weakened colonies, in raising a large foraging force, and in reproductive terms. Whether that is swarming or just raising a large drone population, the means is the same: it is the surplus that powers the colony in preparation for the year ahead.

    Nature selects for high energy storage on that basis, and through that mechanism. Nature does not waste energy. See my previous post: energy is the ultimate object under competition in evolution.

    That is one of the most powerful things you can say about life itself.

    Mike (UK)
    Very good post.
    Some pissed into the ocean and changed the world. Kefuss told us hobbyists we could do it. Read the "goal" sentence!


    Kefuss presentation.jpg
    Last edited by 1102009; 05-06-2018 at 01:05 AM.

  14. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    and we are done here.
    not my graph.....Keufus'
    from the same sorce
    Genetic material was exchanged back and forth between these two independent test populations on an irregular basis by requeening with queen cells and virgin queens from the best 1–5 colonies in each group throughout the field test. Low mite levels and general colony performance such as the ability to rear high-quality queens and honey production determined selection of the breeding material.
    a whole lot of natural selection (insert sarcasm)
    once again highly select breeder queens and grafting shifts the stock
    Well of course, nature selects, then we do some more, what's your point? I do the same. You only talk about the later and ignore the former. The former takes care of factors that we are largely ignorant of. The later pushes the system towards something we think is important. In some cases we can accelerate what nature is already doing. The dink that takes of space is essentially non reproductive. Without the former, you can make large errors with presumption. That is why R. Oliver is still too scared not to treat. He reduces mites, but did he really using the important factors in selection? If he ever does stop treating, he will still find mortality unexplained according to his selection criteria. As will you. The question is once this happens, will you accept it and continue not to treat, or accept it and embrace it as an important part of the selection process? Results are the final arbitrator of this argument. We are waiting for those advocating this approach to achieve results.

    But as Mike says, selection one way or another is important. I would still prefer you as a beekeeping neighbor to those who don't do any selection. It may be inferior, we may wait a long time for you to finally jump off the high board. Hopefully it happens.
    Last edited by lharder; 05-06-2018 at 05:02 AM.

  15. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Very good post.
    Some pissed into the ocean and changed the world. Kefuss told us hobbyists we could do it. Read the "goal" sentence!


    Kefuss presentation.jpg
    Yes, he is a man who works without so much fear. He in an interview also expressed that he wasn't so afraid of beekeeping neighbors. Some out crossing from them is not the end of the world and some good can come from it long term. You can affect your local environment. It will take some work and consideration of spatial configuration to reinforce your work. Hence the Fort Knox approach.

  16. #55
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,549

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    lharder said: “That is why R. Oliver is still too scared not to treat. “

    All this talk, treatment vs. non-treatment is much more complicated than we can figure out. I dont think Randy is “too scared” not to treat whatsoever! And what makes Kefuss the guy to follow over Randy Oliver?
    Proverbs 16:24

  17. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    All this talk, treatment vs. non-treatment is much more complicated than we can figure out.
    well said. there really is more that we don't know about why some populations are resisting varroa off treatments while others cannot, but we are learning.

    in the meantime i think the conversation is better served when open minds prevail regardless of what side of the issue we find ourselves.

    beekeeping will never be a one size fits all endeavor. like with many issues that appear to be either/or this is one that may end up being both/and instead.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    I'm not sure if "it can't be figured out". TF bees and ferals have difficulty getting established where large numbers of keepers treat and with movement of bees. There are well established ecological principles that make me suspect this though it hasn't been established in a peer reviewed way in the case of bees. But it could be looked at and the links made.

    There may be other factors as well, but this is the biggie.

  19. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    2017 was my 8th year keeping bees off treatments and my losses and production have been comparable to others in the area utilizing conventional managements (treatments/feeding).

    i think it's fair to say that my stock is demonstrating a decent amount of resistance/tolerance.

    i also think i've been somewhat fortunate in that most of my losses that appear to be varroa related have taken place in the cold of winter which prevented or at least limited horizontal transmission to other colonies.

    i was less fortunate last fall when a colony at my outyard suffered collapse from varroa and was robbed out by the other colonies in that yard. the resulting domino effect ended up taking down 5 out of the 8 colonies there for a 62.5% loss in that yard.

    the lesson learned was that even stock demonstrating resistance/tolerance has the potential to get overwhelmed and as long as we are keeping more than 1 hive per yard we have to be vigilant enough to avoid such a scenario, not only for our own sake but for others keeping bees nearby as well as any ferals living in the area.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #59
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post

    All this talk, treatment vs. non-treatment is much more complicated than we can figure out.
    I disagree. It simply about gene husbandry. To the extent that that you keep beekeeper-dependent bees alive and free to spread their genes, you will get more of the same. The vulnerable genes have to go. That is basic population husbandry. You can't buck it.

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  21. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,012

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Square
    i was less fortunate last fall when a colony at my outyard suffered collapse from varroa and was robbed out by the other colonies in that yard. the resulting domino effect ended up taking down 5 out of the 8 colonies there for a 62.5% loss in that yard.

    the lesson learned was that even stock demonstrating resistance/tolerance has the potential to get overwhelmed and as long as we are keeping more than 1 hive per yard we have to be vigilant enough to avoid such a scenario, not only for our own sake but for others keeping bees nearby as well as any ferals living in the area.
    You know your hive got robbed because you pay attention and so it is easy to come to that conclution even on a one time event. I do wonder though about the new genetics you added to your bees last year. They were not over represented in that same yard were they?
    Just asking.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps It just seems like a split taking only 30 percent of the mite load from a hive and the hive has a good chance of living but a hive split 8 ways plus any out side bees that might have participated in the robbing, is enough to take 5 hives down. The hives might always be close to the edge at that time of the year but it still seems from a numbers perspective to be giving a lot of credit to one bad hive. Did the robbing happen before most of the winter bees were made?
    zone 5b

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •