Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Control - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    When varroa is introduced (the real crime and an indictment of modern beekeeping and the movement of bees) a massive die back needed to occur with surviving bees moving forward
    That is certainly one view, but I can't think of one domestic live stock that has been manged this way...
    This is not how bee pathogens of manged stock have been over come in the past, and its unlikely that its how they will be overcome in the future.
    how was EFB dealt with ?
    As queen rearing developed into a large-scale commercial enterprise in the Southern States and Italian queens from Europe were used extensively in the breeding program, a strong, Italian-type bee predominated. Before the end of the 1920’s, however, after years of persistent requeening with southern queens, northern beekeepers largely replaced the black bees with a less nervous, Italian-type bee that resisted European foulbrood.
    History of Beekeeping in the United States-EVERETT OERTEL

    as you say
    In a more natural situation, bees would only perform mite control to the point where they had too. Anything more would be a waste of energy
    Nature selects for bees traits to be expressed at the minimum needed, that means most traits are lost quickly in out crossing. This keeps bees flexible and gives them a multitude of options as to what will work best and aloes the species to adapt quickly to change. The flipside is then nature prunes back what dosen't work, to the tune of 60+% a year to maintain the stock. Great for the wild, not so much for a apiary with 20 hives.

    It is possibly if we all just stopped mite management, and we all just stopped moving bees loses would settle in the 60% realm. Past that we are going to need to breed from the best so that there offspring trait expression is above the advrage and re queen our hives so our drones are expessing the traits at a higher level... If we don't keep up high pressure the trait back slides toward nature. like many traits we desire, strong mite resistance and others like gentleness, production of excess honey, low swarming, excess colony longevity etc are at odds with wild survival and need the hand of the beekeeper to select and maintain them as they are at odds with natural selection as in the wild they are a waist of energy or a detrimental behavior.
    Last edited by msl; 05-01-2018 at 08:07 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    The arguements in livestock can be a little simular. Take mad cow diseise and the millions of cows killed to contain it. There were arguements on both sides on whether to vaccinate but then not be able to test for the diseise or destroy the cows. I know it is a bit differrent cause they were trying to destroy a diseise and not make animals strong enough to resist the diseise. The decision of which way to proceed was still a disscussion though and unlike mites or dmw, mad cow diseise could be caught by people. The desision in the end was made based on what was best money wise as far as trade agreements were concerned.

    So the bee decisions are in the end money based also and the money so far has said that we don't want the finacial burden of losing a lot of bees in case it makes then stronger. This really sorta fits the study that started this thread where it was mentioned that even the guys that lost more hives has systems for replacement. And like it was mentioned, those system cost need to be studied to see finacially if they are actually worse.
    Cheers
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  4. #23
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Well sort of...maby....
    No vaxizine, no cure just stop feeding cow parts to cows and kill off the infected and keep them form entering processing systems and contaminating it... I would say its more like AFB don't feed honey or let bees rob AFB hives and burn them.. like AFB the prions can be viably for decades

    The money issue about inishal losses is just the surface argument. What is missed is there are continual high losses that will keep happening if a "natural" path is chosen.
    Traits in bees fade, fast witch is why re-queening with select stock after a few year was the gold standard of old
    An example form a member here... it came from a time I was a bit more enthusiastic about feral being the golden goose
    Quote Originally Posted by Colobee View Post
    My BF production hives have averaged 200 lbs, per, for the last two years. 100-150/per, over the decades. Well worth the cost of replacement queens every 2-3 years.
    It's probably just dumb luck - nothing to do with superior genetics or not wasting time & resources on feral mutts.
    .
    select breeder queens and requeening is how you mantian a trait in your yard at a stronger expression then "natural" .
    when a honey production trait fades you requeen, what happens when a mite resistance trait fades? you lose the stock if you don't treat and re queen.

    despite story's of the "golden" years historic loses were high, especially in the swarm propagation era when selection was much more natural (swarm) and you couldn't make 100 queens from one and requeen your stock (hard to find a queen in a fixed comb hive)
    Keeping bees has been, and is now, by the majority, deemed a hazardous enterprise. The ravages of the moth had been so great, and loss so frequent, that but little attention was given to the subject for a long time. Mr. Weeks lost his entire stock three times in fifteen years.
    Weeks, in a communication to the N. E. Farmer, says, " Since the potato rot commenced, I have lost one-fourth of my stocks annually, by this disease ;" at the same time adds his fears, that " this race of insects will Become extinct from this cause, if not arrested." (Perhaps I ought to mention, that he speaks of it as attacking the "chrysalis" instead of the larva; but as every thing else about it agrees exactly, there is but little, doubt of its being all one thing.
    - Quinby 1853
    Last edited by msl; 05-01-2018 at 09:23 PM.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    msl
    It is a natural way and it isn't, most still pick the best of what they have to make more with. I also, from reading those old guys, seen that losses were big sometimes. Nobody that raises live things can be compleetly risk free no matter what their practices are. I remember from when I was really young where we killed a bunch of cats cause a fox came out during the day and drank from thier water bowl. The cats were not worth taking a chance on waiting to see if they got sick when a fox acts so out of character from how a fox should act and the impact to people could be so bad.
    Cheers
    gww
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  6. #25

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    SiWolke: Completely off topic, but I bought some German creamed honey today. It is from a company named Langnese and labeled as “Creamy Country Honey.” Made in Bargteheide, Germany. Not sure exactly how it got to Alabama, USA. Haven’t tried it yet. Know the group?
    Bergteheide is the seat of the company, where honey is bottled from the EU and Mexico, so it's not local honey, but big business.

    select breeder queens and requeening is how you mantian a trait in your yard at a stronger expression then "natural" .
    msl,
    agriculture and livestock performance still depends much on natural circumstances like the climate or weather and local managements, so there is no silver bullet to success and success might change every year just like nature influences all living things. Maybe not to the same extent if some managements or trait breeding is done but still, nature selects.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I think the issue, however, is annual hive loss as a percentage of that count. One would expect the number of annual hive loss (as a percentage of count) to now be lower in Europe after the benefit of the 5 year ban of neonics. If neonics were the problem, wouldn’t you agree that their removal should have a statistical impact on the annual hive loss numbers?
    The claim isn't that the three treatments banned caused colony loss in the managed populations it was that meta-analysis indicated they may be harmful to pollinator populations.Using managed colonies as an indicator of pollinator health has always struck me as disingenuous; pet cats aren't a good guide to wild mammal health.

    My key takeaways from that paper are that basic animal husbandry techniques are the best way to keep bees alive in boxes.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    as you say
    Nature selects for bees traits to be expressed at the minimum needed, that means most traits are lost quickly in out crossing. This keeps bees flexible and gives them a multitude of options as to what will work best and aloes the species to adapt quickly to change. The flipside is then nature prunes back what dosen't work, to the tune of 60+% a year to maintain the stock. Great for the wild, not so much for a apiary with 20 hives.

    Most mortality with wild bees is a result of competition for nest sites, predation of vulnerable nest sites, or weather exposure also due to poor nest sites. This has been stated before. The 60 percent figure has no relevance if bees are given decent nest sites and protected from bears.

    It also flies in the face of some tf keepers who are developing a track record more on the order of 10 to 20 percent. All beekeepers will experience epidemics of one sort or another. We would expect the number of epidemics to be lower if bee movement was slowed down, tf or not.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    The 60 percent figure has no relevance if bees are given decent nest sites and protected from bears
    The whole point of amimal hunsbdry and slective breeding is to over come those losses
    Decent nest protected from bears...Seeley 2017

    (the following chart can be found in: https://link.springer.com/article/10...-0519-1#citeas )



    43% loses on hived swarms, 21% on established hives, figger 75% of the cast swarms are a loss.......
    spread out and not clustered witch loweres epidemics hence losses... and not asked to do anything but live while being kept in small hives and alowed to swarm, likely lowering stresses and losses.
    The issue is by providing shelter and care, poor genetics are propped up and spread, till pruned back by a crash or epidemic.

    We would expect the number of epidemics to be lower if bee movement was slowed down
    agreeded, and then some serious work on bond type selection could happen..till then any progress is wiped out in a sea of fresh imported genetics.
    Mass importation of resistant stock and persistent re queening over many years is the likly answer... that is what it took and to replace the black bee and bring in EFB resistance in the US

    It also flies in the face of some tf keepers who are developing a track record more on the order of 10 to 20 percent.
    it dose not, you misinterpret my statement.
    Me-
    It is possibly if we all just stopped mite management, and we all just stopped moving bees loses would settle in the 60% realm. Past that we are going to need to breed from the best so that there offspring trait expression is above the advrage and re queen our hives so our drones are expessing the traits at a higher level
    The point was natural section creates natural loss rates
    If you have less then natural loss rates(propping up weak stock) there is less section presure and the stock weakens, creating a colaspic and recovery cycle

    As we have noted "losses" are a subjective and usess subject... so a "track record" as you say is taken with a grain of salt, there are many TF keepers out there whos numbers don't add up....
    Mike B, catching 30-40 swarms a year + makeing splits, only loosing 15 hives a winter and his numbers stay static around 100 hives.....
    Sol P seems much the same

    The TF keepers who are truly doing well on a large scale and have repeatable results in mutpul areas share one trait. Grafting from highly selected breeder queens...This alows for strong section pressure threw re queening, the removal of weak genetics, or genetics that would produce weak stock in an out cross with out the loss of hives.

    Mites aside we know what "natural" beekeeping looks like, and what results it will likely have, there is a reason such thing were left behind in the 1800s.
    Last edited by squarepeg; 05-02-2018 at 11:24 AM. Reason: added reference

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    The TF keepers who are truly doing well on a large scale and have repeatable results in mutpul areas share one trait. Grafting from highly selected breeder queens...This alows for strong section pressure threw re queening, the removal of weak genetics, or genetics that would produce weak stock in an out cross with out the loss of hives.
    Aren't they selecting for a bee that can be maintained within apiary with minimum treatments and other traits beekeepers value? I don't believe you're doing this, but I do think that often people conflate treatment free selection for natural selection. If humans are selecting for traits there is nothing natural about it.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    The claim isn't that the three treatments banned caused colony loss in the managed populations.
    Neonics, primarily the three that were banned by the EU, being a primary cause of colony loss in managed populations of honey bees is an often-asserted claim.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    msl, can you provide a more complete reference for the chart pasted in your post #28?

    if not we may have to remove it, chances are it is copyrighted.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Neonics, primarily the three that were banned by the EU, being a primary cause of colony loss in managed populations of honey bees is an often-asserted claim.
    Just not by the regulatory bodies providing guidance to the Council of Ministers.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Aren't they selecting for a bee that can be maintained within apiary with minimum treatments and other traits beekeepers value?

    I don't believe you're doing this,

    but I do think that often people conflate treatment free selection for natural selection. If humans are selecting for traits there is nothing natural about it.
    yes they are, those who are just spiting everything left alive are not

    I am, my 2018 breeder queen rolled 14 mites, brood off in late Oct 17 after last being treated Nov 2016. she and the rest of the stock did receive a nov 2017 OAD do to colasping hives in the area as insurance as I had the data i needed. and the plan is to requeen the majority of the stock with her and offer cells to my package bee neighbors. at the moment I am able to hold the mite in check with a spring flyback split, natural july brood break from a dearth, a single late fall broodless OAD and about 3 mouths broodless in the winter, my feral based stock starts brood rearing much later then my neighbors. There are of coarse the few outliers that need extra treatments and so get re queened or culled and broken in to nucs.

    agreeded

    msl, can you provide a more complete reference for the chart pasted in your post #28?
    Seeley, T.D. Apidologie (2017) 48: 743. https://doi.org/10.1007/s13592-017-0519-1
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...-0519-1#citeas

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    thanks, i added it to the post.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    IMG]https://media.springernature.com/lw785/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs13592-017-0519-1/MediaObjects/13592_2017_519_Fig3_HTML.gif[/IMG]
    43% loses on hived swarms, 21% on established hives, figger 75% of the cast swarms are a loss.......
    spread out and not clustered witch loweres epidemics hence losses... and not asked to do anything but live while being kept in small hives and alowed to swarm, likely lowering stresses and losses.
    The issue is by providing shelter and care, poor genetics are propped up and spread, till pruned back by a crash or epidemic.

    Yes, that is the issue with treating. But providing habitat (a box) is giving a colony an even playing field with its peers. Founder colonies provided the same type of box as its peers did much better than founders having to settle. Bees cannot create their own habitat. It should be noted here as well that in nature there are catastrophic losses that occur as well. Well adapted critters die at the same rate as unadapted ones. Here a beekeeper plays a role and can reduce these (and sometimes increase them in the case of accidental rolled queens and harvesting too much). But it has nothing to do with natural selection.



    it dose not, you misinterpret my statement.
    Me-
    The point was natural section creates natural loss rates
    If you have less then natural loss rates(propping up weak stock) there is less section presure and the stock weakens, creating a colaspic and recovery cycle

    And you are half way to the point why some treatment isn't useful. The shortest path to resiliency is bond. The selection pressures in a tf apiary are different than in a forest situation. But the bees are still able to apply the right metric, given time. Feral bees only are a useful starting point for stable genetics within an apiary. Read my point above re catastrophic events to see why a good keeper should have less loss than in natural situations.

    As we have noted "losses" are a subjective and usess subject... so a "track record" as you say is taken with a grain of salt, there are many TF keepers out there whos numbers don't add up....
    Mike B, catching 30-40 swarms a year + makeing splits, only loosing 15 hives a winter and his numbers stay static around 100 hives.....
    Sol P seems much the same

    But why do you ignore Keufuss, sp fp and others? The above still have bees regardless of accounting, which is what matters. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with M. Bush's bees and he can easily maintain numbers. Of course Sol has moved around much too much to say anything about his success. A fact conveniently ignored by the naysayers.

    The TF keepers who are truly doing well on a large scale and have repeatable results in mutpul areas share one trait. Grafting from highly selected breeder queens...This alows for strong section pressure threw re queening, the removal of weak genetics, or genetics that would produce weak stock in an out cross with out the loss of hives.

    Of course, its selection on top of natural selection. If I have a chalkbrood ridden colony that sits there, I replace it instead of waiting for nature to do the inevitable. We also select for production and colonies that respond to swarm prevention. Its not natural beekeeping, its using natural selection as a baseline and respecting ecological principles to lesson the frequency of epidemics.

    Mites aside we know what "natural" beekeeping looks like, and what results it will likely have, there is a reason such thing were left behind in the 1800s.[/QUOTE]

    But those who wish to do this probably make some useful genetic contributions to bee populations. There is nothing wrong with this for the average back yarder who has other priorities.

    BTW thankyou for posting Seeley's article. It was a good read that underscores the resiliency of natural systems.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    But why do you ignore Keufuss
    I find it interring you would say that....
    Kefuss is exactly the type of bee keeper I am refering to when I said
    The TF keepers who are truly doing well on a large scale and have repeatable results in mutpul areas share one trait. Grafting from highly selected breeder queens
    He had a EFB problem in his Argentinian opperation
    Did he just split from survivors, or from hives that showed no EFB?.....Nope
    He did a frozen brood assay on over 380 hives, selected the 14 most hygienic and grafted from them, Pinched the queens of the other 366+ and placed cells
    Massive beekeeper selection pressure based on objective metrics, that's how you shift and or maintain traits.

    But those who wish to do this probably make some useful genetic contributions to bee populations. There is nothing wrong with this for the average back yarder who has other priorities.
    It laughably to suggest the average back yarder is going to make any sort of contribution to bee genetics. They are peeing while swimming the ocean, the other swimmers will never notice a thing. The only people who gain from such a method are the package bee sellers.
    Its not wrong to walk that path if it makes the keeper happy, but its wrong to tell them it has anything to do with the greater good

    If I have a chalkbrood ridden colony that sits there, I replace it instead of waiting for nature to do the inevitable.
    So why do you resist the suggestion to use the same method on a mite ridden colony?

    We also select for production and colonies that respond to swarm prevention. Its not natural beekeeping, its using natural selection as a baseline
    I am not sure what your getting at, can you explane.
    Not dead under your care is a baseline for most selection programs. High production and low swarming are at odds with wild survival and what nature selects for.
    Last edited by msl; 05-04-2018 at 03:30 PM.

  18. #37

    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    It laughably to suggest the average back yarder is going to make any sort of contribution to bee genetics.
    Nevertheless, in the other direction, to make the population weaker, it has also worked, at least in my area, the hobbyists and sideliners ( no commercial big enterprise here) have achieved that.
    It could then work the other way round, but only with a group of beekeepers who have the same goal.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    High production and low swarming are at odds with wild survival and what nature selects for.
    Are you sure about that? Energy is what powers all life. High production is energy stored.

    Reproduction is another matter. Rates vary according to circumstances. When higher frequency than average swarming supplies an advantage over lower rates, that will tend to become a feature of the population - for as long as that condition holds.

    When circumstances reverse the opposite will apply.

    Quite what effect scale breeding (by which I mean breeding at a scale sufficient to make a difference) or controlled breeding (AI) can have on rates I don't know. (What the cost to feral bees of such activities is, is of course another question: no-one seems to care much but its worth asking just for educational purposes)

    What the average and bell curve look like, and how much they vary in different races I don't know either.

    The big picture in nature is this:

    the winners in the competition to influence the next generation are those individuals who use the present resources to most efficiently turn the available energy into viable offspring.

    Think about that for a moment. That's the natural selection baseline.

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    BTW as a general comment. If you are a person that needs medication to survive, you are not a healthy person. I think the same applied to bees.
    We should stop treating malaria, people will eventually evolve out of it.

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    Default Re: Pan-European Study finds honey bee survival depends on Beekeeper and Disease Cont

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I find it interring you would say that....
    Kefuss is exactly the type of bee keeper I am refering to when I said

    He had a EFB problem in his Argentinian opperation
    Did he just split from survivors, or from hives that showed no EFB?.....Nope
    He did a frozen brood assay on over 380 hives, selected the 14 most hygienic and grafted from them, Pinched the queens of the other 366+ and placed cells
    Massive beekeeper selection pressure based on objective metrics, that's how you shift and or maintain traits.


    It laughably to suggest the average back yarder is going to make any sort of contribution to bee genetics. They are peeing while swimming the ocean, the other swimmers will never notice a thing. The only people who gain from such a method are the package bee sellers.
    Its not wrong to walk that path if it makes the keeper happy, but its wrong to tell them it has anything to do with the greater good


    So why do you resist the suggestion to use the same method on a mite ridden colony?


    I am not sure what your getting at, can you explane.
    Not dead under your care is a baseline for most selection programs. High production and low swarming are at odds with wild survival and what nature selects for.
    But Seeley in the same study showed low brood disease in Arnot bees in the same study you posted. I don't know the history of his south american operation, but they didn't start out as tf nor had a long history of tf. How can you ignore that efb affected colonies would have low survival and reproductive success? Again context is important in interpreting what went on. Don't raise queens from efb infested colonies. Makes sense to me.

    I just read the site of Olympic Wilderness Apiaries (http://wildernessbees.com/) who had N. ceranae sweep through their mostly tf operation. Nature selected hard for 2 years, then losses back to 10 percent. Now we have an increasingly visible queen breeder in BC who is have great success with TF, but with high losses initially. Again 10 years for an approximate timeline. Pruning by nature is hard when it needs to. Assays for hygienic behaviour accelerates what nature is doing for those diseases that are selected against that would be less acute but still detrimental.

    As far as mites are concerned, if we knew exactly what we were looking for and understood the mite/virus dynamic exactly and thought there was no effect on microbiota (a reach), then we could. But we don't, so there is some throwing out the baby with the bath water. A mite count of 10 percent on one hive is not the same as a mite count of 10 percent on another. Its the rule of unintended consequences. Meanwhile my microbiota is not affected. If most of my hives are good and they will be because they have been selected, an occasional mite bomb won't effect things and provides some useful additional selection pressure.

    The other advantage nature has over a breeder is the scale of selection. No critter is exempt. That is why TF backyarders are important. To ramp up the scale of selection. That is why education about using local bees and having regional self sufficiency is important. Changing the adaptive landscape is where bee associations must be much more responsible. For some it may not work, but who is anyone to say it won't until it is tried because local spatial considerations are important. If it doesn't it indicates that local beekeeping has totally screwed up the adaptive landscape. So who should change? An person who is trying to shift the system to something more sustainable long term, or people who ignore ecological principles?

    As mentioned by others, bees are often naturally productive and there are ecological reasons for it. They can produce lots of spring swarms and will dominate the local genetic space. My bees will swarm if left to their own devices, but respond to space management and some population management. Some bees don't. What my bees have to contend with is the lack of brood break associated with swarming. So they probably have to pay more attention to mites than in the wild. But they seem to have the tools to do so as many by now have shown.

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