supercedure v. emergency queens - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    My experienced co-worker just confirmed this.
    Supersedure cell eggs are laid by the queen into a cup in an action of renewing the colony, not raised out of worker larvae in case of emergency. So queen cells above an excluder are emergency cells always.
    Not the case.
    Queencells raises as a result of queenright queenraising are classed as supercedure as the queen pheromone is reduced enough in the top box where the brood is (and not the queen) that the bees think the queen is on the way out so the beekeeper uses this reduced queen pheromone to his advantage.
    In addition I have had queencells produced in the super above the queen excluder on a few occasions. these are usually just above the excluder and in the few cases I have seen were as a result of usual swarming preparations.
    May your bees read the same books as you do
    http://www.norfolkbee.co.uk/home

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Sometimes, but not always.
    Agreed. It depends on a number of factors - some of which we probably don't know much about but a young strong queen has more queen 'substance' i.e. pheromone that an old girl so there will less liklihood of queencells being made. Size of colony, time of year, flavour of bee will all affect whether a queencell will be produced or not.
    May your bees read the same books as you do
    http://www.norfolkbee.co.uk/home

  4. #63
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Spur9 View Post
    Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?
    The virgin will not be able to get to the queen so they will potentially co-exist. If there are other queencells in the hive - most likely, then the old queen below the excluder will probably fly if the other queencells were raised as a result of the swarming impulse. If not, then my expectation is that the trapped virgin will stay as such and finish up laying drones. However if there was just one queencell, that would indicate supercedre and if the virgin was not mated and therefore unable to take over the colony properly, the bees would probably try to make another queen.
    May your bees read the same books as you do
    http://www.norfolkbee.co.uk/home

  5. #64

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Spur9 View Post
    Has anyone, either by accident or for the benefit of science, allowed queen cells (made above an excluder) to hatch out while the queen is below? Does a swarm occur? Does the virgin queen seek out and kill the old queen? Do the workers kill the old queen? Is the old queen abandoned? Other results?
    Has happened numerous times by me. It has never lead to swarming, but our buckfast is very slow to swarm. I donīt have upper entrances, and that is why the result is usually dead unmated queen on the excluder.

    Sometimes by unusually hot weather (here in Finland something above 25 C) I move the topmost box 5 cm back, to make the hive more easily ventilated. In these cases there is sometimes a new laying queen with lots of capped brood above excluder in the time of extracting, old queen under the excluder.

    Never has the birth of a young queen above excluder had any effect on the old queen.

  6. #65

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Are supercedure cells started with eggs layed in cups and emergency cells started by using a larvae always?

  7. #66
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i am finding these at the bottoms of the frames and in the burr comb areas where fresh drone comb has been drawn but not laid in. by appearance these cells are indistinguishable from other swarm cells and supercedure cells that i see.

    these were not floated out of a worker cell, although i do have some cells here and there that were. these tended to be smaller and uncapped. i'll have to pay more attention to this next time i'm out.
    i pulled a few frames containing queen cells started and finished above excluded queenright colony.

    i observed another case where a near perfect vertical cup as long or longer that what i get grafting located in freshly drawn drone comb that has not been laid in yet.

    it was obvious that the head of the cell did not start out a cup, but rather a drone cell that had the bottom notched out by the bees.

    evidence for egg moving? maybe.

    what to call a cell like that? emergency supercedure?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #67
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    I would like to know the mechanism whereby the workers can convince a queen to lay a fertilized egg in such a cell when she may not know she is compromised and in fact might not be.

    We know that it is not the most common routine though; we also know that workers moving eggs (if it is so) has to be very out of the ordinary. I think for practical purposes M.P.'s description or definition will do the job; still I think that it is possible the line gets blurred when the driving conditions have very subtle difference. If the bees sometimes do make cells, and sometimes do not, it is clearly not a blatant emergency for them.

    I would like to see comparative ovariole counts on queens produced in cups by classical supercedure conditions, and those of queens that were produced under bounteous conditions from modified worker cells and motivated by a gentle separation such as with an excluder or double screen board.
    Frank

  9. #68

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i pulled a few frames containing queen cells started and finished above excluded queenright colony.

    i observed another case where a near perfect vertical cup as long or longer that what i get grafting located in freshly drawn drone comb that has not been laid in yet.

    it was obvious that the head of the cell did not start out a cup, but rather a drone cell that had the bottom notched out by the bees.

    evidence for egg moving? maybe.

    what to call a cell like that? emergency supercedure?
    I donīt think the bees move eggs but I think they manage the raising of new queens by eliminating some which are at the wrong places.

    I think the bees manage the supercedure too, not the queen ( in case there is no excluder). The queen just lays eggs and if a fertilized egg is in the cup they use it. Perhaps the bees can influence this somehow.

    The queen, or in case she is excluded, a laying worker uses the queen cup and the bees do what they think best, raise something.
    I had someone tell me he found 3 drone pupa in a capped queen cell. Must be a try of a laying worker`s hive to raise a new queen, probably the larvae was too old or such.

    And what about grafting? This is the emergency action per se, if it is claimed a supercedure or swarm cell is the best because the new queens are raised out of eggs from the beginning.
    So the grafted queens are not as good? Tell that to a breeder.

  10. #69
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Are supercedure cells started with eggs layed in cups and emergency cells started by using a larvae always?
    That's what I believe

  11. #70
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    it was obvious that the head of the cell did not start out a cup, but rather a drone cell that had the bottom notched out by the bees.

    evidence for egg moving? maybe.
    I don't think so. I see eggs in cups above the excluder...in my cell builders. No queen above the excluder. I believe they are worker laid eggs.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I would like to see comparative...
    i'll agree that by using grafts and manipulating conditions it's possible to produce large numbers of cells that on average may be better fed and end up larger than what the bees come up with most of the time on their own.

    i never see naturally produced cells that look like the one's in lauri's photos.

    the question is how good do they have to be? by the references provided in mb's review linked above it appears that beekeepers have been debating this for awhile.

    i'm likely through with manipulating for swarm prevention for this year and don't anticipate having to move any more queens down below an excluder until next season.

    the remaining nucs i make up this year will received grafted cells so i'll have a chance to make some casual comparisons.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #72
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Feeding beyond what is necessary to achieve full genetic potential may be wasted unless the appearance of the developing cell can be turned to economic benefit . Is a "sumo wrestler" queen better? There is no question though that underfed larva pushing three days from the egg, will not give good results.

    I guess this angle is a bit off the topic of the original post; identifying definitively the cause of cell production by its appearance and position on the comb. That certainly could be of benefit to the beekeeper for spotting potential problems, and knowing whether or not the situation needs his intervention.
    Frank

  14. #73
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    i was pushed to caught up with the beework and didn't even consider trying to photodocument the process. next time i'll have someone in the yard with me doing that.

    by leaving the 2 - 3 best looking (actually nice looking) cells the bees and the emerging queens will by process of natural selection choosing (hopefully) the most fit.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #74
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    by leaving the 2 - 3 best looking (actually nice looking) cells the bees and the emerging queens will by process of natural selection choosing (hopefully) the most fit.
    This is something I have been thinking about. When using queen cells to start a nuc, many people only put one cell in there. I was wondering if that could have an adverse effect on getting the best queen. For those that re-queen each year, it isn't an issue, but if you are trying beekeeping as a full husbandry experience, having the best does matter. Do you usually use multiple cells? I wonder if that could be part of the reason for your chemical free success.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  16. #75
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    Do you usually use multiple cells?
    the important point is that the bees usually use mulitple cells.

    i'm trying my best to make management decisions that have the least impact on what the colonies are trying to do on their own.

    it's not hurting that it's prime time for them to be building swarm cells anyway. many of the cells i am harvesting above the excluder look more like swarm cells than anything,

    i.e. these cells are located toward the bottom of the frame in areas freshly drawn drone comb that was jammed across the gap from the bottom of one box and the top of the next one down.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #76

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    it's not hurting that it's prime time for them to be building swarm cells anyway.
    I think this argumentation is very important! To use the swarm urge time to do the managements and to follow the bees.

  18. #77
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    [QUOTE=enjambres;1624857]I really don't understand the above two comments!

    "ETA, not Spur9's comments with pics, but the preceeding two by squarepeg and Juhani Lunden.

    A queen excluder makes the bees supercede their queen? How does that work if the worker bees can go through it freely? I rarely use a QEx, but when I do it has never prompted a supercedure."

    I learned to be more careful using queen excluders this spring. My swarm queen returned mated and found her up in honey super so I marked her and placed her down in brood chamber and introduced a queen excluder right away. I failed to see the eggs she had laid in the frames she was on. I waited three weeks before reinspecting, being satisfied there was a newly mated queen in hive, I planned to give her time to lay. Amazed and bewildered to see a group of bees and a virgin queen up on honey super small entrance (above excluder) seconds before she took off to mate. Inspection later in the evening confirmed my suspicion. The swarm cell queen was freshly killed still twitching on center of frame being tended to probably stung by virgin earlier. she had laid some beautiful worker brood frames, but the bees above the excluder did not know or care. I assume they wanted her laying up on top of hive while temps were still very cool outside.

    One to always remember.
    Vic

  19. #78
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    I don't think so. I see eggs in cups above the excluder...in my cell builders. No queen above the excluder. I believe they are worker laid eggs.
    good call michael, you were correct.

    you've seen this one play out before haven't you?

    i really appreciate you taking the time to make me consider that possibility. i've only seen 'fake' queen cells a couple of times and those were in laying worker hives.

    so instead of letting those nucs 'cook' for 3 weeks and checking for mated queens i went out this afternoon and found that a couple of those nice looking cells had already been torn down.

    i'm guessing the drone eggs were already in the freshly drawn drone cells when i placed the excluder.

    so no evidence for moving eggs or larvae observed, and that the 'queenless' space in the hive above the excluder would result in a queen cell with a drone egg supports the view that the cells produced above the excluder are more emergency driven than supercedure driven.

    again, many thanks for chiming in michael.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #79
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    >evidence for egg moving? maybe.

    My problem with the theory of egg moving (besides explaining how they would glue the egg down) is:

    1) No one has ever documented observing eggs being moved by bees that I have read. Huber went to great lengths to set up scenarios where moving eggs would be the only hope the bees had of getting a queen and they never moved any.
    2) There is always an explanation that has been observed before. Laying workers are one explanation. Even if the queen cell develops into a queen, thelytoky has been observed on occasion over several centuries now.

    Now if someone could get footage of bees moving and gluing an egg into a queen cell, I would accept that... but as long as it can be explained by something that HAS been observed, I think the odds are that method is more likely.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  21. #80
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Nice job from you guys.

    Nnamani.

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