supercedure v. emergency queens - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I've taken the liberty of extracting a page of photographs from Wally Shaw's rather extensive article on this subject,
    Looking at Wally's photos: The swarm cells look like classic swarm cells, as do the emergency cells. The emergency cells are at the edge of the brood pattern, as I would expect them to be. The supercedure cell...yes it's the almost same length as the emergency cells. But it's different in my eyes. Note the irregularity in the comb structure just above and attached to the cell. I believe the bees built a queen cup on that irregularity and the queen laid an egg in it...whereas the emergency cells are on all worker cells.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Classic Swarm Cells ?
    A foundationless comb like that isn't a fair comparison with a drawn worker comb. The youngest brood...which the bees would use to construct their emergency cells...were located near the comb edges...making emergency cells look like swarm cells.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    i agree with MP. Planned supercedures take place using an existing queen cup. I see it all the time. Also, perhaps they started more after the initial supercedure which will also be emergency cells, just depends on the situation. Now, if a queen suddenly fails, of course they have to make emergency cells, but I don't consider that superceding the queen, that's still an emergency replacement.

  5. #24

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Supersedure and emergency cells have the same construction: they are both formed from existing cells. They often differ in their number and placement, with emergency cells usually being produced in larger numbers as the colony is in something of a panic and attempts to maximise it's chances of a successful recovery.
    I agree with Michael.

    One another thing, which holds in most of the cases:
    When there are eggs in the hive they are supersedure cells. When there are not, they are emergency cells.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    One another thing, which holds in most of the cases:
    When there are eggs in the hive they are supersedure cells. When there are not, they are emergency cells.
    Simple

  7. #26
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    so when part of a hive is made queenless for example by using a snelgrove board or a queen excluder,

    and queen cells are started from eggs floated out of worker cells in the part of the hive that the queen has been restricted from,

    but the old queen is still laying nearby,

    are those considered emergency or supercedure cells?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #27

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    so when part of a hive is made queenless for example by using a snelgrove board or a queen excluder,

    and queen cells are started from eggs floated out of worker cells in the part of the hive that the queen has been restricted from,

    but the old queen is still laying nearby,

    are those considered emergency or supercedure cells?
    queen excluder: supercedure instinct is in use
    air and bee tight board: loss of a queen -> emergency cells

  9. #28
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    Default

    This pic came from a swarm that I hived on 3/31. This was the 2nd frame drawn out. I took this pic on 4/3. They pretty much immediately superseded the swarm queen. The 3 and 4 frame were partially drawn and had eggs laid. Also saw the swarm queen laying in frame 6 (drawn comb).
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  10. #29
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    Default

    This pic of frame 6 was taken 9 days after I removed the swarm queen from the hive. This frame was left in the hive and not moved with the queen. The bees realized they were queenless and made emergency cells. Ignored the fact of the supersedure cell/queen in above pic.
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  11. #30
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    I really don't understand the above two comments!

    ETA, not Spur9's comments with pics, but the preceeding two by squarepeg and Juhani Lunden.

    A queen excluder makes the bees supercede their queen? How does that work if the worker bees can go through it freely? I rarely use a QEx, but when I do it has never prompted a supercedure.

    What is an an "air and bee tight board"? That's not a Snelgrove or double screen board, which is only bee-tight.

    What's going on above a Snelgrove (or double-screen board) is the creation of emergency cells. While the bees may be able scent some of the parent colony's pheromones, but they no longer have direct contact with the QMP since the double screening prevents workers from passing it on.

    Given availability of the right resources (eggs and very young larvae) I trust the bees to know which to use to get high quality queens started and well-fed through their larval stage. The location, shape, and even the apparent size, of the queen cell seem to be secondary to the bees making a good selection and feeding that larva royal jelly. I'm betting they are really good at that.

    Nancy

  12. #31
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    i've been wondering about this too enj.

    even without the excluder, i find that when i open up/pyramid up the broodnest and make the nest area so large that the queen can't keep up, that 'supercedure' cells sometimes get started, even though the queen is laying good solid patterns of brood.

    when i split the queen out of a hive like that the colony goes on with her as normal with no more supercedure cells.

    it makes me think that the trigger for the supercedure is that the queen isn't laying cells as fast as the house bees are preparing cells for her to lay in, even though it's because of my doings and not really the queen's fault.

    so perhaps with an excluder (didn't know snelgroves were double screened) something like that is going on?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #32
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Nancy, when you separate brood from the queen via an excluder, the bees above the excluder think they're queenless. The start emergency cells, I set up my cell builders like that. Something like 60 during grafting season. Brood above an excluder for 10 day. When inspected on grafting day, at least 25% have emergency cells.

  14. #33

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    I
    What's going on above a Snelgrove (or double-screen board) is the creation of emergency cells. While the bees may be able scent some of the parent colony's pheromones, but they no longer have direct contact with the QMP since the double screening prevents workers from passing it on.
    A queen excluder makes the bees supercede their queen?
    Normal cellbuilder, queen below, queen excluder on top of her boxes, queen cells (to be built) above it, is using the supersedure instinct of bees. This is very basics of beekeeping.

    I did not know what a snelgrove board was. You are right, I added the comment airtight just to be clear that the queen substance cannot go through, then it is emergency cell building instinc what arises in the bees.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  16. #35
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    I guess the $10 question is a well developed emergency cell that is well fed and cared for as good as grafted cells? I think they can be from a strong colony, even more so when employing Mel's OTS to break the lower half of the cell wall. Done off a weak or struggling colony of course the results will go down hill......

  17. #36
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?
    Sometimes, but not always.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?
    I am following the management style of member clyderoad this spring. He moves the queen down into the low box in the spring and then adds an excluder. But he checks for queen cells in the box above the excluder after a few days. If the queen was laying in that box, there is a possibility that the nurse bees tending brood might think they are queenless. Here is his reply to my question of why he checks for queen cells:

    "The half was on top of the deep all winter and the bees establish the brood nest or part of the brood nest in it coming out of winter. Although I wait to put the half over a QE until I see the queen beginning to move down into the deep and the brood in the half is mostly capped there is a very good chance there are queen rearing aged larvae in the half that could be made into queen cells by the bees when it's placed over the QE. When it's time to shake bees down into the deep from the half I don't examine the frames in the half other than to see that most of the brood is capped and healthy. I don't want them making a queen above the excluder so a week later I check the half over the QE for queen cells and destroy them if found. Stray queen cells wreak havoc on my management. Since the queen is below the QE, after I cut any queen cells I find in the half in a weeks time after I've shaken the bees down, I don't have to worry about it anymore. I find this easier and faster than closely examining every cell in the half before I place it over the QE. I have missed to many larvae of queen rearing age in the past to trust myself."

    I think it falls in line with Michael Palmer's post about the bees thinking they are queenless. The queen scent possibly not being distributed enough once the excluder is in place. I have done this to a dozen or so hives so far and have not had queen cells built yet. I have 2 left to check that I moved the queen below an excluder this past weekend.
    Zone 7a - 1650ft

  19. #38
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells?
    for about the 10 times or so i've done it (like clyde, moving the queen down below and leaving brood above the excluder) i've found cells a week later in roughly half the hives.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #39
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    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton Huestis View Post
    I guess the $10 question is a well developed emergency cell that is well fed and cared for as good as grafted cells? I think they can be from a strong colony, even more so when employing Mel's OTS to break the lower half of the cell wall. Done off a weak or struggling colony of course the results will go down hill......
    good question clay. here's a bit of a review mb has on his site:

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  21. #40

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    So, if I move a frame of brood into the box above the queen excluder grate, the bees will create emergency cells? Even though the queen smell is still flowing throughout the hive and the workers can go back and forth?
    As Michael said they will make cells, sometimes. They are created because the bees feel something is wrong with the queen and this is because there is too little queen substance around. The amount of queen substance above queen excluder, however, varies. And so does the bees willingness to build cells.

    If there is a good queen, lot of bees going through the excluder and bees are not very eager to build cells (swarmy bees are, non swarmy are not), then there will be no cells built.
    If there is less good queen, less bees going through the excluder and a bit swarmier bees, they will build them.

    But in all cases they are not emergency cell, but supersedure cells, because only the total lack of queen substance activates emergency cell building instinct, and does it in all cases.


    Supersedure instinct to build cells above excluder gets considerably stronger after the excluder has been in place for 4 days. All eggs hatch and now all bees are convinced that there is something wrong with the queen, even though they seem to get some queen subestance below excluder.

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