supercedure v. emergency queens
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 92
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,129

    Default supercedure v. emergency queens

    We checked on the hives and nucs today. Nuc 2 has built emergency cells and capped them. They look much shorter than supercedure cells. Is the queen going to be any good that comes out of them? Nuc 1 has built some as well, but does have 2 supercedure cells that haven't hatched yet.

    Three supercedure cells look to have hatched in hive 1. One was still intact. What are the chances that it has a viable queen in it?
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Rensselaer County, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,525

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    In both of these hives, is there still a queen in there, too? If no queen then in my experience they aren't supercedure cells but they may be emergency cells (or swarm cells).

    Nancy

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,129

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Nucs have no queen, hence emergency cells. Hive 1 does have a queen as of last week, possibly before. It is where I found the supercedure cells. Supercedure cells in nuc 1 came from the mother hive.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Rensselaer County, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,525

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Oh, I get it, now!

    Re nuc #1 with emergency cells: they generally look smaller because unlike swarm or supercedure cells they originally had a horizontal orientation rather than a typically vertical one. My bees make excellent queens from emergency cells all the time. A way to alter the orientation (more vertical vs horizontal) is using a little bit of the Mel Disselkoen's OTS technique. But this may just be a way to make a cosmetic difference to the cells, making them seem more-queenish to our eyes. I put a lot of faith in the bees knowing what to do to get good queens made when they need to, especially on something they could easily modify like the shape of a cell, as opposed to an external factor like being forced by circumstances (or beekeepers' actions) to make a queen when some other issue like temps or nutritional supplies weren't great. Sounds like this one is on the way.

    Re the nuc with pre-existing supercedure cells: I sometimes try to take advantage of multiple supercedure cells and make a nuc with one or two. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. As a beekeeper, I think that those cells would be preferable (always fed as queens) to e-cells, but the bees sometimes think differently, I guess. If they also had the wherewithall (very young larvae, or eggs) to make emergency cells in addition to caring for the supercedure cells, it will still work well. Though your developmental-stage timing periods would be different in each case making it harder to know when to stay out of the way of a queen going out to mate. I'd workout that timing both from the earliest possible mating period (supercedure queen) and latest (emergency cell queen) and just leave them alone for the whole time.

    Hive #1, with the supercedure cells: work out the timing for that and then be sure to stay out when the queen is likely to be mating. You may get a chance to snatch the old queen out, and put her in a nuc if you wanted to, but maybe not.

    Nancy

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,292

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    Re nuc #1 with emergency cells: they generally look smaller because unlike swarm or supercedure cells they originally had a horizontal orientation rather than a typically vertical one.
    Supersedure and emergency cells have the same construction: they are both formed from existing cells. They often differ in their number and placement, with emergency cells usually being produced in larger numbers as the colony is in something of a panic and attempts to maximise it's chances of a successful recovery.

    Swarm cells have a different construction - they are custom-made beforehand - hence the bees choose to build them in places where space for their presence is available, such as at the periphery of half-drawn combs, along the bottom edge of existing combs, at the upper edge of any existing holes in combs, and so forth. It is because such q/cells are more fully visually exposed that they appear larger (and thus more desirable to the beekeeper).
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,073

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Supersedure and emergency cells have the same construction: they are both formed from existing cells. They often differ in their number and placement, with emergency cells usually being produced in larger numbers as the colony is in something of a panic and attempts to maximise it's chances of a successful recovery. LJ
    I respectfully disagree LJ. Emergency cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The larvae are floated out of their cells and a queen cell is constructed. They do look smaller than swarm or supercedure cells because part of the cell is the old worker cell. Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.

    My take on the difference.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    5,173

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.
    Mike, so there really is no difference between a supercedure cell and a swarm cell other than placement?
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    5,173

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    I respectfully disagree LJ. Emergency cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The larvae are floated out of their cells and a queen cell is constructed. They do look smaller than swarm or supercedure cells because part of the cell is the old worker cell. Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.

    My take on the difference.
    So how does one know the difference, size of the cell?
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Crown Point, NY, USA
    Posts
    562

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    I have had both excellent emergency queens and terrible ones. I think with any queen rearing it boils down to how well they are fed. Age of larvae also plays a role, but it is impossible for them to choose a larvae that is too old. Maybe less desirable larvae perhaps but not too old. That's why commercial queen rearing grafts: its about control of each aspect to produce excellent queens in large numbers. I think emergency queens can be good queens but you need to make sure they have resources to feed the queens and proper aged larvae to choose from. The bees do the hard part......

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,129

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Sounds like these two nucs should do well. Good to hear.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    1,766

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    So how does one know the difference, size of the cell?
    You know the difference because emergency cells begin as worker cells. The cell extends outward and slightly downward from a worker cell
    If you have emergency cells, the hive is queenless. The bees had a very short window of opportunity to chose worker larva and change the cells and feed into that of queen cells.

    Swarm cells and supercedure cells are first constructed, then the queen lays an egg into them.
    Their appearance is very distinct from emergency cells.
    But don't feel bad. Even a "famous" author got the distinction wrong in a bee journal a few years back much to his later embarrassment....
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,617

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Here are emergency cells started when I put a frame with eggs and brood into a hive I thought was queenless. When the cells are started on old comb they dont tear down the cell walls much. If they have eggs or youngest larvae on fresh comb that is only partially drawn out the cell will hang flatter but still will not have the total construction vertical like one built for supercedure or swarm. You can really see the difference in cells that have been mostly torn down after the queens emerge
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Frank

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,129

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Nice pics. What did you use to get them?
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  15. #14
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,617

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Nikon 820, highest resolution, telephoto setting and from about 3 feet away. It gives you good depth of focus and keeps your shadow off the subject.

    I have raised quite a few queens with the Snelgrove division board which basically creates well fed emergency cells. The author advises to cull any that are capped by the fourth day indicating they might have been started with older larvae but I have not had that happen. If they have the choice they will not use larvae of the age that compromises the queen.
    Frank

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,073

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    So how does one know the difference, size of the cell?
    Yes, size matters. Emergency cells are shorter. Also, they're located at the edges of the brood pattern...that's where the youngest brood was located when the colony went broodless. So the cells are at the edges of the pattern.

    Supercedure cells are full size cells.Same size as swarm cells. Fewer than swarm. Often only a couple. Usually somewhere on the comb...not from a pre-existing larva, but on a projection on the comb. Sometimes on the margins of the comb...but again, only a couple.

    IDing swarm vs. supercedure...same as above, but you need to look at the colony, and try to figure it out. Is the colony obviously in swarm mode, or do they have issues. Poor pattern. Colony out of balance. It really isn't so difficult if you look.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,073

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    But don't feel bad. Even a "famous" author got the distinction wrong in a bee journal a few years back much to his later embarrassment....
    Hard to believe, isn't it. I could name 3 or 4 who got it wrong. Makes you wonder how many bees they've actually handled.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,292

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    I respectfully disagree LJ. Emergency cells are started from pre-existing worker larvae. The larvae are floated out of their cells and a queen cell is constructed. They do look smaller than swarm or supercedure cells because part of the cell is the old worker cell. Supercedure cells are constructed using a queen cup on the face of, or a projection on the comb. The queen lays an egg in the cup and the larva is reared as a queen.

    My take on the difference.
    Hi Michael - hope this finds you well.

    It would be a brave man indeed who disagreed with someone of your extensive experience ... but - what I've seen myself doesn't mirror what is being described.

    I've taken the liberty of extracting a page of photographs from Wally Shaw's rather extensive article on this subject, which can be downloaded from: http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploa...nglish-PDF.pdf

    Queen Cells.jpg

    As you can see in the above graphic, the swarm cells shown there are large (due to them being fully exposed), whereas the examples of supersedure and emergency cells are - for-all-intents-and-purposes the same size. There appears to be a slight difference in magnification between the photographs of supersedure and emergency cells, but even so, they're very much alike.

    The example of supersedure cell shown there is typical of the supersedure cells which I tend to see at this apiary (although not that often, due to a fairly regular turnover of queens). That is fact. And I would therefore appeal to logic - how else would a reasonable size of queen emerge from such a cell, unless half of the queen-cell extends back into the comb's brood cell, as with emergency queen-cells ? But that of course must remain conjecture.

    Shaw makes two points of interest - the first relates to supersedure cells being formed from existing eggs (or as I've suggested, from larvae):

    2) Supersedure Cells
    Like swarm cells, these are typically vertical and are usually located on the face of the comb (see Figure 2). But they can also have the same origin as emergency queen cells (see below) and be based on an egg laid in a worker cell (not a queen cup) they look like an emergency cell but are there for a quite different purpose.
    The second point he makes - which I don't remember ever seeing myself - is that fully vertical emergency cells are sometimes formed upon new comb - presumably with the larvae being 'floated-out' as you've described for supersedure cells.

    But thanks for the correction Michael, I'll take more care to qualify such statements in future ...

    'best
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,292

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Classic Swarm Cells ?

    QC2.jpg

    Right size, quantity and location on the comb.

    Only they're not - these are emergency queen-cells. Perhaps this is what Wally Shaw was talking about - 'full-size' fully vertical emergency cells being drawn on brand new comb ?
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  20. #19
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,617

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    If the affective emergency happens when there are eggs or the youngest larvae in cells near the margins of partially drawn comb, then I imagine the queen cells constructed will be of very little difference from cells motivated by the supercedure urge. I would think the conditions that bring about supercedure can vary considerably and affect the time frame of decision making process by the bees. In simpler words could there be a combination of both emergency and supercedure cells in progress at the same time.

    Bad weather and Carniolan bees can cause cells to be started that can make you scratch your head as to what motivated them.
    Frank

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Isle of Wight, VA
    Posts
    2,751

    Default Re: supercedure v. emergency queens

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Classic Swarm Cells ?

    QC2.jpg

    Right size, quantity and location on the comb.

    Only they're not - these are emergency queen-cells. Perhaps this is what Wally Shaw was talking about - 'full-size' fully vertical emergency cells being drawn on brand new comb ?
    LJ
    Great illustration. I was just getting ready to go out and photograph the topbar hive/nuc that I have working on queen cells. The combs are new comb less than a month old with fresh eggs that went into a split with plenty of bees. The vast majority of beekeepers who look at the comb would call them swarm cells, but they are emergency cells, and they make fantastic queens. That is how I get all my queens, with what I call a "planned emergency replacement". Either pull the laying queen or make a split to a new box.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •