Best Varroa Resistant Breed for NH - Page 2
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 85
  1. #21

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Beekeepers, mostly commercials, are sometimes strange.

    Because they use queens from resistance breeding (from a conversation of a colleague of mine with Juhani Lunden) and then the brood nest is not big enough in their eyes, although it means an adaptation. Maybe there may be less honey then, but you also have less cost for chemicals and maybe less work.

    It is not continued at all then with such stock, testing it long time, away with it and newer introduced. Until the bees light the smoker for them

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,108

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    A typical and unfair comment on commercial beekeeping. Too lazy to light a smoker? Oh please. I don't say I find TF beekeepers who lose most of their bees every year as being strange. As usual, the discussion becomes them and us.

  4. #23

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    A typical and unfair comment on commercial beekeeping. Too lazy to light a smoker? Oh please. I don't say I find TF beekeepers who lose most of their bees every year as being strange. As usual, the discussion becomes them and us.
    I apologize. It was meant as fun. And it was a quote from a presentation, not my invention.

    But there is some truth in this. I have my losses because of commercial beekeeping of the last 30 years.. Not the other way around. Not even soft bond done here.

    And Iīm tired of having to hide still. I work with commercials, treaters, but they do not work with me, except those who see the treadmill.
    Those who know but are not interested attack me for 5 years now as a varroa bomb. Them and us, itīs their idea, not mine.
    Last edited by 1102009; 04-15-2018 at 09:53 AM.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Anderson County, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    480

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by jcase View Post
    I'm going to vote on VSH, with a caveat. The breeder has to actually be maintaining the trait, that goes with ankle biter, russian etc. It has to be maintained, and I don't think many are doing so.

    A 100% expressing VSH hive will have ZERO reproducing mites. A 75% expressing hive will only allow around 50% of mites to be reproducing. A 50% expressing hive will allow around 67% of mites to be reproducing. This all excludes drone bees, which is generally pretty minimal and only for part of the year.

    Expressing : reproducing mites
    100% : 0%
    75% : 50%
    50% : 67%
    Hi Jon and everyone--great to see folks enthusiastic about breeding toward varroa resistance!

    Jon, looking at VSH expression in offspring from VSH parents, I'd be careful with the concept of "% Expression". Inheritance for suites of traits, in this example, VSH, can take some time to be fully understood, and regarding VSH as a percentage can be misleading--although convenient.

    I'd look at VSH breeding units (breeder queens, drones from daughters of breeder queens) as either having VSH or not having VSH. Rather then a percentage, it's a "good/not good" selection protocol. The easiest way to determine this is to observe the number of mites in test colonies over time, without treatments, or after a treatment on a given date, observe the number of mites in treated colonies three months after the treatment.

    Or, if one is performing the non-reproductive VSH test, make a cut-off and cull anything below the cut-off.

    Mite resistance comes from bees that are able to inhibit mite population growth in a way that the colony remains healthy after an infestation.

    Keep your eyes open for good colonies and follow a test protocol that is accurate.
    Also keep in mind that selection will be much more effective, the larger the selection pool is.

    Adam
    http://vpqueenbees.com

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA, USA
    Posts
    469

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    Hi Jon and everyone--great to see folks enthusiastic about breeding toward varroa resistance!

    Jon, looking at VSH expression in offspring from VSH parents, I'd be careful with the concept of "% Expression". Inheritance for suites of traits, in this example, VSH, can take some time to be fully understood, and regarding VSH as a percentage can be misleading--although convenient.

    I'd look at VSH breeding units (breeder queens, drones from daughters of breeder queens) as either having VSH or not having VSH. Rather then a percentage, it's a "good/not good" selection protocol. The easiest way to determine this is to observe the number of mites in test colonies over time, without treatments, or after a treatment on a given date, observe the number of mites in treated colonies three months after the treatment.

    Or, if one is performing the non-reproductive VSH test, make a cut-off and cull anything below the cut-off.

    Mite resistance comes from bees that are able to inhibit mite population growth in a way that the colony remains healthy after an infestation.

    Keep your eyes open for good colonies and follow a test protocol that is accurate.
    Also keep in mind that selection will be much more effective, the larger the selection pool is.

    Adam
    http://vpqueenbees.com
    Adam,

    <post coffee edit>
    I believe I miss interpreted your post. There is absolutely more to it than just monitoring the % of expressing VSH. Overall mite levels etc are absolutely needed to be monitored. So are other traits that could be easily lost when selecting just for absolute VSH expression.

    Leaving the post as is with this header, as I believe it is accurate.
    </post coffee edit>

    <pre coffee clause>
    This entire post is written minutes after rolling out of bed. I often don't make any sense until I have coffee. Often I can't even read anything right before I have coffee. I fully reserve the right to edit, delete or flat out deny this reply ever existed for up to 1 hour after I have coffee. To be blunt, I will probably ramble here in this post.
    </pre coffee clause>

    I respect you and what you do but I've got to disagree. I could be wrong, I know darn well I don't have the experience you have at all, but I believe I'm on the right track here. I think we need to pay more attention to the level of VSH behavior expressed in a colony, especially as I begin looking at the various "VSH" queens I have acquired, and reaching out to others for advice on this journey (Dr Harbo has been very helpful in my quest to test and isolate vsh, you were very helpful in regards to both VSH, regards to II, and regards to the BS floating around the industry).

    Some, bred from known breeders, are not showing any difference from any other bees, some moderately, some are rocking along. Some obviously are expressing it to a high and acceptable degree. That one I bought from you is expressing it VERY well. Mite counts are consistently low. Her daughters? 50/50. Some are right up there with her, some quite well but no where near the parent, some don't appear to have any VSH behavior at all. I used various different drone sources with them. Some insemianted from other low mite count colonies, some were open mated.

    Again I could be wrong, but I'm guessing this is a combination of how much VSH the mother colony is expressing combined with the random drones the daughters are mating with.

    If the breeder is expressing to 75%, it is entirely possible for her offspring to expressing anywhere from 0% to 100%. Realistically anything below 50% is functionally worthless here.

    We can't just look at if the hive has VSH or not. A hive can have VSH traits, it can express it at 25%, and you are darn near the margin of error. It is functionally impossible to tell the difference of a colony expressing at that level, verses at 0%. An a high expressing breeder queen can still produce 0% expressing daughters. We need to look at, and control the amount of VSH the breeder queens (And drone sources if those are controllable for the breeder) are expressing.

    So what can we do here? We can buy islands and control the drone pool, but I'm not rich. We can II all of our colonies, I'm doing this for now but this isn't realistic for most. We can flood the drone pool, this is difficult at best, not going to work at worst.

    Or

    We can control how much of the VSH trait the queen is passing along to her daughters. If the breeder queen is expressing to 100%, at minimum her daughters will express 50%. Every single daughter colony should have a reasonable level of mite resistance.

    If we are not controlling the % of VSH the mother colony has at the very least, there is no responsible or realistic way people should be selling the daughters are VSH queens. Especially once they go past that first generation from the breeder. I'm willing to bet some of those VSH queens I bought, are expressing 0% VSH behavior. My highest mite count colony, is the daughter of a VSH breeder queen.

    I don't believe anything expressing lower than 50% should be sold as VSH. Only two ways to know on that, we test that individual colony (not realistic) or we know that the queen or/and the drone mother colonies are expressing at 100%.

    My cut-off is 75%, I'm actively culling anything below that as I come across it. The colony is either broke down to a nuc and sold locally, or I take them to one of my out yards for honey production until I can requeen it. I am culling from a lot at this point, but I have multiple breeders expressing at that level, and have bought many more from others to test.

    Ok I'm getting my @##@[email protected]#$ coffee now.
    Last edited by jcase; 04-19-2018 at 07:44 AM.
    Instrumental Insemination & Northern VSH Queens

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Nashua, NH, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Wouldn't the "percent VSH" depend on whether there are multiple alleles that result in VSH behavior? I think if it is only one dominant allele, then it is either 100% or 0%. Otherwise you can have partial expression of the trait...

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA, USA
    Posts
    469

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by NHbeek View Post
    Wouldn't the "percent VSH" depend on whether there are multiple alleles that result in VSH behavior? I think if it is only one dominant allele, then it is either 100% or 0%. Otherwise you can have partial expression of the trait...
    It is at least two genes involved, partial email from last winter:

    <snip>.... I think that there may be as few as two genes involved in VSH, and this varroa-resistant trait can be added to any bee population...<snip>[/QUOTE}

    John Harbo
    Harbo Bee Company
    You are also forgetting drones are contributing genetics to the mix. This isn't one mother and one father situation. I also believe we are looking at something obviously co-dominate, but that is just my gut feeling here, I have seen others with fancy letters behind their name suggest the same.
    Instrumental Insemination & Northern VSH Queens

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Nashua, NH, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Considering the drones, there must be a continuum of expression from hive to hive. All the posters saying that the success of a treatment free operation is highly dependant on location leads me to believe that these traits are not strong or widespread enough for many beekeepers to rely on them. I just want to start with bees that are carrying at least some resistant genes and test -> treat -> requeen and see where I end up.

  10. #29

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    Jon, looking at VSH expression in offspring from VSH parents, I'd be careful with the concept of "% Expression". Inheritance for suites of traits, in this example, VSH, can take some time to be fully understood, and regarding VSH as a percentage can be misleading--although convenient.
    Hi Adam!

    I think jcase is speaking what you referred as "non-reproductive test".

    To my knowledge the VSH quality is only measured by opening hundreds of cells and counting mites with or without offspring. How would a beekeeper otherwise know anything about the amount of VSH in his hives?

    I have in fact quite recently been teaching newcomers that VSH cannot be seen with eyes.

    In Europe they count mites and "%Expression" is what they speak about. For instance: "69% mating station" in this summer open for everybody willing to take his/her mating nucs with queens there, "75% mating station" just for the ones participating in a project. The % refer the the drones used in the station.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA, USA
    Posts
    469

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Hi Adam!

    I think jcase is speaking what you referred as "non-reproductive test".

    To my knowledge the VSH quality is only measured by opening hundreds of cells and counting mites with or without offspring. How would a beekeeper otherwise know anything about the amount of VSH in his hives?

    I have in fact quite recently been teaching newcomers that VSH cannot be seen with eyes.

    In Europe they count mites and "%Expression" is what they speak about. For instance: "69% mating station" in this summer open for everybody willing to take his/her mating nucs with queens there, "75% mating station" just for the ones participating in a project. The % refer the the drones used in the station.
    I'm quite sure adam was suggesting that we should be paying attention to more aspects than the % of expression. I just wasnt fully awake when replying.
    Instrumental Insemination & Northern VSH Queens

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ft. Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    650

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    I'm curious how you all test and select for those colonies that are similarly under attack in the fall and are able to withstand the influx of mites. It's been found that it's not just the mites that are reproducing within each colony but the foragers that are returning with mites from their travels. Those colonies with high % of resistance still have mites coming in the front door. It's been explained as a slow drip, constant in the fall.

    https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pu...eqNo115=334517

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA, USA
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy View Post
    I'm curious how you all test and select for those colonies that are similarly under attack in the fall and are able to withstand the influx of mites. It's been found that it's not just the mites that are reproducing within each colony but the foragers that are returning with mites from their travels. Those colonies with high % of resistance still have mites coming in the front door. It's been explained as a slow drip, constant in the fall.

    https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pu...eqNo115=334517
    http://www.harbobeeco.com/storage/me...%202018pdf.pdf

    I realize with incoming mites washes won't tell a complete story. This the benchmark in using, but at this point vsh is the only mechanism I'm testing for.
    Instrumental Insemination & Northern VSH Queens

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Anderson County, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    480

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Hi Adam!

    To my knowledge the VSH quality is only measured by opening hundreds of cells and counting mites with or without offspring. How would a beekeeper otherwise know anything about the amount of VSH in his hives?

    I have in fact quite recently been teaching newcomers that VSH cannot be seen with eyes.
    VSH expression may be measured with the Non-reproductive test you and Jcase describe

    AND with Successive mite washes over the season

    AND selecting for Highest % infested brood removal.

    The most accurate way to select for VSH and the underlying mite resistance giving colony robustness is to use as many VSH tests as possible

    AND to select for good colony traits as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    In Europe they count mites and "%Expression" is what they speak about. For instance: "69% mating station" in this summer open for everybody willing to take his/her mating nucs with queens there, "75% mating station" just for the ones participating in a project. The % refer the the drones used in the station.
    The "%Expression" is based on the assumption that the underlying heredity is understood. Since it isn't yet, using "%Expression" can be misleading. However, it simplifies a complicated hereditary scenario and that's certainly convenient.

    When you have some good VSH expression in a colony, and there is a mite load, you can see the bees uncapping and disrupting mites in cells.
    You can also see non-reproductive mites in cells, but you have to dig for them.

    Adam
    http://vpqueenbees.com
    Last edited by adamf; 04-22-2018 at 07:54 AM.

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Anderson County, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    480

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by jcase View Post
    I'm quite sure adam was suggesting that we should be paying attention to more aspects than the % of expression. I just wasnt fully awake when replying.


    Adam
    http://vpqueenbees.com

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Clinton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    442

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post

    AND to select for good colony traits as well.
    This was and probably continues to be the stumbling block to wider dispersal of VSH expression. The original stock which was sent to USDA for evaluation and release of SMR had virtually no other desirable traits that I recall. Those colonies sat treatment free and alive for extended periods in commerical, migratory settings BUT they had no other economic value at that point in time. A decade later with a fair amount of insemination work the 2nd round that went in the mix for the eventual VSH release had begun to show generally desirable characteristics but not the extent that large operations would readily want them. Not sure what it will take to get enough change to see a widespread distribution

  17. #36

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    VSH expression may be measured with the Non-reproductive test you and Jcase describe

    AND with Successive mite washes over the season

    AND selecting for Highest % infested brood removal.

    The most accurate way to select for VSH and the underlying mite resistance giving colony robustness is to use as many VSH tests as possible

    AND to select for good colony traits as well.

    "AND" being the most important word.

    Sometimes VSH is spoken when only spotted brood is seen...

    BTW: How do you select for "Highest % infested brood removal" ?

    I mean how would you know they remove only infested brood, unless making Non -reproductive test?



    Mite washes might give results which have no connection to VSH (= ability to detect mites with offspring)

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    I have my losses because of commercial beekeeping of the last 30 years..
    So are You sure that 30 years ago people didn't have so much losses? Is there any reliable statistics in Germany about losses 30 years ago and even in XIX century? I'm very interested in it.

  19. #38

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    A statistic that has a real statement about the losses due to diseases before 1990 I have never seen.

    If you look at the skep beekeeping time you see the managements to go into winter strong, many colonies were combined. Skeps are much better for overwintering because of the lower moisture level.
    And with the killing of brood combs the colonies were renewed. ( Not that I promote the killing, but to freeze brood is just like that

    https://av.tib.eu/media/14378

    The number of bee colonies went down in 1990, but because the Soviet Union collapsed and beekeepers were no longer government sponsored.

    Then there were good and bad years, mass extinctions or few casualties, all in all the number of colonies increased because the keepers had medicines and beekeeping became attractive again.

    It would be interesting to see a statistic of how much and which medicines are necessary today compared to 1990, the costs and the frequency of treatments, because that is the real problem, the decline in resistance despite higher density of colonies which could lead to a total crash of population if another disease is imported.
    Last edited by 1102009; 04-25-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    A statistic that has a real statement about the losses due to diseases before 1990 I have never seen.
    So this is hypothesis?


    The number of bee colonies went down in 1990, but because the Soviet Union collapsed and beekeepers were no longer government sponsored.
    Don't know how in Germany, but in Poland still it's quite a lot of state economic interventionism, protectionist policy in beekeeping, but I think that beekeeping generally in UE is subsidized by the state. More or less of course.

    all in all the number of colonies increased because the keepers had medicines and beekeeping became attractive again.
    Interesting theory. Do you have anything to support this? Because I think, however, that treatment is a secondary and even a tertiary reason. The economic profitability of the activity is more important. I think that could be the main reason. Treating is cost money and time, too. Time is money, too.


    the decline in resistance despite higher density of colonies which could lead to a total crash of population if another disease is imported.
    Who knows. Maybe dependent of the region. But what I read the bottleneck of selection is more likely to occur. This is main statement of the darwinian radical TF beekeeping, yes? "Let them die and make the bottleneck of selection."

  21. #40

    Default Re: Best Varroa Resistant Breed

    Quote Originally Posted by Varroa Apiary View Post
    So are You sure that 30 years ago people didn't have so much losses? Is there any reliable statistics in Germany about losses 30 years ago and even in XIX century? I'm very interested in it.
    Got informations from a retired co-worker today that losses of 10% were seen as normal by his fatherīs generation. This without treatments.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •