OAV treatment in honey producing hive

[msl]

pure conjecture without a OAV study

If we accept this point as valid, then is its also pure conjecture that it doesn't get in the supers with out a study.

We are dealing with a food product, so absentee of any proof to challenge the validity of the label, I argue we should follow the law and protect our product from pesticide contamination.

[clyderoad]

If we accept this point as valid, then is its also pure conjecture that it doesn't get in the supers with out a study.

We are dealing with a food product, so absentee of any proof to challenge the validity of the label, I argue we should follow the law and protect our product from pesticide contamination.

Decisions based upon hard data, right msl ?

[msl]

Yes
Plenty of hard data to support that OAV is not effective with brood on.
Plenty of hard data to support that the other two OA application methods can end up in honey when used in the spring/summer or when mutpul winter treatments are done
Mean whole there is no hard data and only internet speculation that OAV doesn't get get in the honey when used when supers are on, much less with the 3,4,5 Tx it takes to get mite control with brood on.

[gww]

Randy oliver has based his decision on other studies and is making his own but is already confident of what the results will be before proving those results. Basicaly repeating previous proof.
Here is another of the previous studies but there are a few.
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/art...004/enzo_1.pdf

What is funny about these discussions is that mqas does leave residues but those residues are below the danger rate. It leave more residue then olixic does regaurdless of application method. To Mike G's point on open cells, the honey that has been tested is still not showing up with higher rates then is natural in all honey. So maby there is small residue but it is small enough that it does not really change what is normal for honey.

Here is another one taken from open cells eight days after treatment and tested.
https://www.apiservices.biz/en/artic...varroa-control

Several vaperisor sellers give instructions of just placing a seperating sheet between the honey supers and brood chambers during treatment and then removing it.
It is enough to convince me that the claims of olixic not being fat solible makes it not gether in honey and comb.

Enough actual measurments have been taken to make me feel very comfortable with the olixic treatments not causeing honey to go out of bound of what the bees themselves would naturally add to the honey. there is another study somewhere that show where the olixic vapor ends up after treatment with percentages of where and how long before it leave the hives after treatment. If a guy wanted to do the math base on what it said, if you were doing 5 treatment 3 days apart at 2 grams each, You might have a gram left somewhere in the hive whenit was all done. I did not put the math to the study or feel like spending all day trying to find it again but do remember enough of it that my math is proby close.

Hopsguard and mqas are both worse for residue then olixic but all seem to be safe levels.

Msl is correct that randys studies when released will probly be one more that will prove the same thing the previous ones have proven.
Cheers
gww

[Mike Gillmore]

OA Vaporization has been used in Europe and Canada for quite some time, yet there are still restrictions from the vaporizer manufacturers to not use this method with supers on the hives. I wonder why those limitations were put in place to begin with. Is there conflicting data from other tests that would require the warning to not apply OA with supers on.

I'm not disputing test reports which seem to indicate that it's safe to vaporize with supers on and not impact the honey. It just seems odd that it's taken decades for someone to take a closer look at this and focus on disproving the fear of OA contaminating the honey in open cells.

[gww]

Mike
I know this may not answer your question but, I think it cost money to get approval and wonder if it might be more a question of who would bennifit enough to spend that money for that approval. I know it would not be me. Randy has decided to but has been given some donations for some of the work he does. I don't think it is as easy to get stuff done through the government. olixic was done here even though everyone was using it already because the government decided to go ahead and accept canadas test. Would we even be able to legally been able to use olixic if the government would not have waved the testing required? Would someone have stepped to the plate knowing that beekeeper can go to the lumber yard and buy wood bleach? Not much incentinve to jump through hoops if you can't get a return on your effort.

I think that is how things work and not the other way around where once we know it should be common sense. Ask randy how easy it is to do even if you are right. The gov does not do thier testing they just grade yours.
Cheers
gww

[Tim KS]

What foods are high in oxalic acid?
High Oxalic Acid Foods. Lists of foods high in oxalic acid vary greatly from source to source. The body is known to absorb oxalic acid from only a handful of foods, according to the University of British Columbia, including peanuts, pecans, wheat bran, spinach, rhubarb, beets and beet greens and chocolate. (NOTE...honey is not included)

...so if you eat any of the above list...WATCH OUT!

[viesest]

I'm not disputing test reports which seem to indicate that it's safe to vaporize with supers on and not impact the honey. It just seems odd that it's taken decades for someone to take a closer look at this and focus on disproving the fear of OA contaminating the honey in open cells.

The instructions are correct. The assumption is wrong; that instructions are in that form because OA residues in honey are health risk.

[fatshark]

I don't see anything in the reference you posted about waiting 2 weeks before putting supers on after an OA treatment. Maybe I missed it?

I do know of a 3-year study in Switzerland that showed no increase in the oxalic acid content of honey after multiple treatments, with honey supers on the hive. Granted, the study is for spraying and dribbling applications, but directly spraying honey supers with oxalic acid would surely have a greater affect on the honey than re-installing the supers a few hours after an OAV treatment. And even so, the impact to the honey was zero.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...eld_conditions

As msl states ...

This paper is often quoted as indicating that it's OK to treat with honey supers on. It doesn't indicate anything of the sort. It simply shows that OA does not persist for months in the hive.

And in response to baybee ...

I'm not aware that the experiment has been done once, let alone many times, and it's not straightforward. If it has been done, it's not been peer-reviewed and published anywhere visible. It's not straightforward because of the cost of OA testing and because the OA content of honey varies significantly anyway (45-89mg/kg in this study). It would have to be a study with multiple replicates to reproduce a range of field conditions.

Interesting to note that OA was stable in honey over a 3-6 month period in this study. Therefore, once 'contaminated' with OA added exogenously it would likely linger.

For me, that's one of the most compelling reasons NOT to treat with honey supers in place (or temporarily removed for <14 days).

[psm1212]

Is powdered sugar a pesticide when it is sprinkled into a hive to manage varroa? Is it legal for me to use powdered sugar as a pesticide without the approval of the EPA and my state?

[psm1212]

blocking of the supers for a few hours is out side both the letter and sprit of the approval and is wholey inadequate measure to prevent the OA from ending up in the supers

The label is the law. Period. The label says: "Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey." My honey supers are "in place" when they are affixed to the upper brood chamber making a contiguous space with that brood chamber. If I put a piece of luann between my honey supers and the brood chamber, my supers are no longer "in place." That is the law. Your interpretation only differs from mine. We can argue about that, but you are incorrect when you say that I violate the "letter" of the law. As to the "spirit" of the law, that is pure fiction. There is no such thing.

[gww]

Here is link number four in this thread replicating the results of the previous three testing results.
https://www.apidologie.org/articles/...6/01/M6010.pdf
Cheers
gww

[Groundhwg]

The label is the law. Period. The label says: "Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey." My honey supers are "in place" when they are affixed to the upper brood chamber making a contiguous space with that brood chamber. If I put a piece of luann between my honey supers and the brood chamber, my supers are no longer "in place." That is the law. Your interpretation only differs from mine. We can argue about that, but you are incorrect when you say that I violate the "letter" of the law. As to the "spirit" of the law, that is pure fiction. There is no such thing.

Ding, Ding, Ding, We have a winner. Careful you are be logical and making sense so most will disagree.

[Tim KS]

The directions on my "Wood Bleach" doesn't say anything about removing honey supers............

[psm1212]

The directions on my "Wood Bleach" doesn't say anything about removing honey supers............

And I assume you are only attempting to bleach the wood on the interior of your hive bodies, right?

[baybee]

... and it's not straightforward. If it has been done, it's not been peer-reviewed and published anywhere visible.

Fatshark (or "Horizontally Gifted" shark as they now say here across the pond), I was thinking about a simple experiment when one quantifies OA in samples of open nectar or sugar syrup before and a few hours after an OAV. Yes, natural OA varies widely in different honeys. The question however is how much OA is added to open nectar with a typical OAV treatment.

Frames with plastic comb could be filled with syrup, or frames with open nectar could be borrowed from a hive and then treated with OAV in a mock hive without bees or in a full-scale test hive with bees. I know there are commercial kits for quantitation of oxalates from Sigma which could be used for measuring the before and after concentrations. It can't be done at home but should be a straightforward (one day?) experiment for a chemistry or biotech lab. After all, they can extract and sequence DNA from microgram samples of tissue.

[crofter]

If you blanche when you taste the honey you will know it picked up some additional OA! If you cant taste any extra tang it will not have unsafe levels compared to, say, carrots or other normally consumed daily fare. Locations that have a high percentage of blueweed or leafy spurge that the bees are concentrating on, produce honey that will leave a fair tingle on your tongue for quite a while too; different chemicals though.

At such a time when flow and supers are on, brood rearing will be happening and it then takes a lot of repeat back to back treatments with OA to get mite numbers down. You might get under the taste test radar with one shot but perhaps not with the six or eight vaporizations of a double series.

[baybee]

...but perhaps not with the six or eight vaporizations of a double series.

Yes, this is the question which I believe isn't super-hard to answer with an experiment. One? Eight? Or twenty eight?

[gww]

baybee
I wish you would do the experment and tell us how it went. I would be interested but don't want to do the work.
Cheers
gww

[baybee]

baybee
I wish you would do the experment and tell us how it went. I would be interested but don't want to do the work.
Cheers
gww

Well, I definitely could provide the before and after samples. Would still need a budget to buy chemicals, glassware and rent a space in a chemistry lab with appropriate equipment.

The questions still are: Has it been done before here or in Europe, or in Argentina? And would beekeepers with a background in analytical chemistry approve this particular approach?