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  1. #41
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    It wasnt legal in the US and beekeepers started using it to kill the mites.No one was fined and people kept buying it and using it till EPA gave their approval.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcin View Post
    No.
    But is that the point? If I use something off label, why can't my neighbor spray their lawn twice a day?
    What does your neighbor spraying his yard have to do with you using OA on your bees?

  4. #43
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper1d View Post
    What does your neighbor spraying his yard have to do with you using OA on your bees?
    Depending on what that neighbor is spraying and whether he is following the pesticide label directions, and whether or not the beekeeper is using EPA registered oxalic acid, then both could be illegal applications of a pesticide.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #44
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    You can find msds on i think osha , and do a msds search for oa dihydrate, it has 2 forms of o.a. So search em both.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    The best thing is to always stay out of your neighbors business and maybe he will stay out of yours. You are not going to know if he is using off label unless you are with him or spying on him.Either way you report him then you are out looking for trouble from him.Respect your neighbor and he will respect you.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I buy the Florida Labs product in 5# bags online, 99.6% pure. I trust it more than wood bleach from the hardware store for purity. Cost per gram is really low in larger quantities, less than .01 per gram.
    Ditto
    Florida Labs is one of the bigger manufacturers of OA in the US> Their prices on Ebay are excellent, the shipping is super fast AND, when I bought mine last year, it included the correct label to use as miticide.

  8. #47
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    Oxalic acid vaporization (really sublimation, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of V. destructor.
    I'm going to split a few hairs, but, there are reasons it is important to understand the differences. If you want to get technical about it, putting Savogran into a vaporizer _IS_ an off label use.

    in the world of pesticides, the term 'label' is not a marketing thing stuck on the front of the packaging with pretty pictures meant to drive sales, it is a legal document affixed to the pesticide container that contains information regarding toxicity to the target species, toxicity to non target species, instructions for use with corresponding dosages for application.

    In the US, the product sold by Brushy Mountain is a registered pesticide, and annotated as such with a pesticide label. Generic products containing similar ingredients are not registered pesticides. If you are saying that Savogran wood bleach is a registered pesticide, you are incorrect. There is nothing on the wood bleach label describing the useage in that role, with no information on toxicity to the target species and non target species, nor is there dosage information available on the Savogran label. The same can be said of TacTik, dont think anybody will try pass off TacTik as a registered pesticide for use in beehives, but that doesn't stop a lot of folks from using it.

    I have not read the actual pesticide label on the Brushy Mountain product, it's not available in our area, but I do know it was derived from the same data used to produce the label used by the Canadian Honey Council for sale of miticides in Canada, so I expect it will have the same conditions and limitations. I see many examples of folks posting here on BeeSource from folks who ignore the limitations listed on the pesticide label for an oxalic acid based miticide. A really good example, many will vaporize the colonies with honey supers in place, a practice specifically prohibited on the pesticide label with regards to using an OA based pesticide.

    I produce a high quality food product which is sold into the human food chain. We carry liability insurance with respect to the product we sell. Use of off label (ie unlabelled pesticides) in producing that product can invalidate our insurance and open us to liability. I know it's a fine line, but for folks that sell honey from the beehives, it is important to realize the implications of that fine line. If for whatever reason at some point in time you end up in a legal liability situation regarding the product you have sold, using off label pesticides in your hives gives your liability insurer all the 'out' they need to deny coverage on that claim. It's a sticky fine point, but, it's the kind of detail lawyers love to find.

    The bottom line is this, as much as folks want to wish otherwise, when you put Savogran into your vaporizer and then put it into the beehive, you are using it off label, and it is an off label pesticide. As much as you want to say otherwise, it just isn't so. Brushy Mountain sells a labeled pesticide for this purpose, and the Savogran label does not mention anywhere it's use in this role.

    Do you care ? Well, that's up to you. I own a farm and we sell food products. I carry a farm liability policy which covers us in the event we have a downstream issue with those products that results in some form of litigation. If I start using off label pesticides, that coverage can become null and void. It may be a very low risk, but consequences in that event can become very high. To me, it's a simple risk/consequence equation, it's not worth putting my entire asset base at risk thru litigation for the sake of saving a few pennies on a miticide. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hops Brewster View Post
    Ditto
    Florida Labs is one of the bigger manufacturers of OA in the US> Their prices on Ebay are excellent, the shipping is super fast AND, when I bought mine last year, it included the correct label to use as miticide.

    While Florida Labs may well include "directions" as to how to use oxalic acid to kill varroa, I would be very surprised that it actually has an EPA registration number identifying that oxalic acid as a registered pesticide.

    Here is a photo of the Brushy Mtn product:
    Oxalic Acid_main-1.jpg
    Note the EPA Registration Number on the Brushy Mtn OA label.
    [photo credit: https://www.brushymountainbeefarm.co...eywords=oxalic]
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #49
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    When I wrote:

    Oxalic acid vaporization (really sublimation, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of V. destructor.
    I was talking about the method, not the source of the chemical. You all know I use Savogran, so you know I use an unlabled product.

    Perhaps because I started vaporizing my hives with OA before the method was approved in the US, never mind approval of a source of the chemical, I see this an important distinction, but YMMV.

    Ya'll can argue over the details, and select the product that's tailored to your conscience, but I am likely to keep on buying Savogran since it's cheap and it works very well for me.

    Perhaps I should amend my quote:
    Oxalic acid vaporization (really sublimation, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved, application method for applying oxalic acid as a miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of V. destructor.
    Nancy

  11. #50
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper1d View Post
    Respect your neighbor and he will respect you.
    I think that is the point that others are trying to make here as well. Beekeepers have for decades whined about off-label and irresponsible uses of pesticides. Therefore, we lose credibility when we use off-label pesticides within our own hives. And I am guilty of both whining about pesticides used irresponsibly and using Savogran in my hive. So no stones are being thrown by me.

    Probably, the best way we can respect our neighbors AND encourage our neighbors to respect us is if we all agree to follow the rules and stick to the labels.

    But I am neither a good beekeeper, nor a good neighbor.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: oxalic acid




    The label on the packet of OA says to Refer to Complete Label for Directions and Restrictions. This is the Complete Label it is referring to. Very specific to beekeeping usage only.

    i know it's a grey area, and I do not claim to be guiltless, but this is the only product that is "technically" approved for you to treat your bees with. It may be the exact same product found in a container of Savogran, but the labeling and instructions for use are completely different.
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  13. #52
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    "It may be the exact same product found in a container of Savogran" Are you going to turn people in for using "the same exact product" if it doesnt have the same label?

  14. #53
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    I didn't say anything about turning people in, just adding a little more information for those who would like to understand the differences in label and off-label usage relative to OA. We're all free to make our own choices, and I doubt very much there are OA police out there waiting for us to pull a container of Savogran out of our tool boxes in the beeyard. I'm not going to defend anyone's position either way on this, just adding more facts to the discussion.
    To everything there is a season....

  15. #54
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper1d View Post
    Do any of you really believe the EPA boogie man is going to spy on you so he can fine you thousands of dollars because of you using OA that doesnt have Brushy Mountain's lable on it.
    It can happen. Missouri dept of ag officials Are known to pull over a sprayer going between fields and ask to see a list of what's in the tank. One year they were watching for a tell-tale reaction of rice to see if a certain herbicide was applied (was made legal later that year). They were ready to fine producers, even though the research had already been done and released. Nothing is legal till it gets that EPA and state label.

    All it takes is for said official to be curious and see you treating hives for him to check your "pesticide application".

    Dealing with this crap everyday is one of the reasons the farmers that so many bee keepers love to hate on are often in a bad mood.
    Hindsight is 20/10, not 20/20...
    After the fact, I always know what didn't work.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Here is a topical story ...

    Amazon, EPA reach $1.2 million settlement over online sales of illegal pesticides

    A snippet from that article ...
    EPA said investigation into the illegal products started with summer interns in the national office, searching the internet for unregistered pesticides offered by online retailers. Because of the enormous shift from brick-and-mortar retailers to online commerce, “This is a very difficult avenue of pesticides sales to get our hands around,” Schulze said. Asked how much illegal pesticide product he believes is still out there, he answered “a lot.”

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...al-pesticides/
    Hmmm .... summer interns looking to make a name for themselves, and get a leg up on a full-time job offer? You never know how you might come to the attention of 'the man'.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  17. #56
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    While Florida Labs may well include "directions" as to how to use oxalic acid to kill varroa, I would be very surprised that it actually has an EPA registration number identifying that oxalic acid as a registered pesticide.

    Here is a photo of the Brushy Mtn product:
    Oxalic Acid_main-1.jpg
    Note the EPA Registration Number on the Brushy Mtn OA label.
    [photo credit: https://www.brushymountainbeefarm.co...eywords=oxalic]
    Why would you be surprised? They are the manufacturer, of course they would have the registration number. But sorry, I am a couple days away from being able to take a pic of it.

    I would be surprised if they did include any instruction sheet. Instructions for specific uses such as rust removal, wood bleaching, etching, or even as a miticide, is provided by the distributor, such as Brushy Mountain or Savogran.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper1d View Post
    It wasnt legal in the US and beekeepers started using it to kill the mites.No one was fined and people kept buying it and using it till EPA gave their approval.
    Just never let Radar know, not sure his heart could stand it.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Depending on what that neighbor is spraying and whether he is following the pesticide label directions, and whether or not the beekeeper is using EPA registered oxalic acid, then both could be illegal applications of a pesticide.
    Well I have no way of knowing and he has not way to know if/how I may or may not be treating my bees.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hops Brewster View Post
    Why would you be surprised? They are the manufacturer, of course they would have the registration number. But sorry, I am a couple days away from being able to take a pic of it.

    I would be surprised if they did include any instruction sheet. Instructions for specific uses such as rust removal, wood bleaching, etching, or even as a miticide, is provided by the distributor, such as Brushy Mountain or Savogran.
    The crux of the oxalic acid registration situation is that plain old generic oxalic acid is not a pesticide in the eyes of the EPA. It is 'wood bleach' which is not a pesticide. Its only because Brushy Mountain jumped though the Federal and various State hoops to register their product as a EPA registered and approved pesticide for varroa control that the product gets an EPA pesticide registration number. I'm confident that you won't find an EPA pesticide registration number on that Florida Labs package because it is not an EPA registered pesticide. Go ahead - post a picture and prove me wrong!



    And as some people seem to be making assumptions about what my personal opinion about this whole registered / non-registered issue is, NONE of what I posted above in this thread regarding EPA registered pesticides reflects my opinions. All I did was summarize what the Federal EPA and related State regulations say.

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  21. #60
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Putting aside the label discussion for a moment, has anyone compared the sublimation between Savogran and Florida Lab oxalic acid? I noticed that the Savogran oa sublimates faster and doesn't create as much vapor. The Florida Lab oa is slower to sublimate (about 30 to 40 seconds) and creates more vapor that looks thicker. I'm NOT saying one or the other works better or is a better product, but I would be interested in someone else comparing them and see what the results are.

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