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Thread: oxalic acid

  1. #21
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Brushy Mountain is currently the only US distributor* of EPA 'labeled and approved' oxalic acid for use as a varroa pesticide. By Federal law, pesticides may only be sold and used out of a container that is labeled with a complete use and dosage label that references the correct usage of that pesticide to control the target pest.

    In addition to Brushy Mountain selling that EPA labeled product directly, their dealers also sell the Brushy Mountain EPA labeled oxalic acid (OA). Also, Brushy Mountain wholesales its EPA labeled OA to some of its competitors in the bee business. For instance, Dadant sells Brushy Mtn EPA labeled OA.

    However, what Mann Lake is selling is not labeled as a pesticide, and not legal to use as a varroa control. But that does not seem to stop Mann Lake from selling oxalic acid labeled as wood bleach.


    *(in this sense, "distributor" is meant as "manufacturer", although Brushy does not actually own a manufacturing plant producing oxalic acid.)
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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  3. #22
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    Mar 2018
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    Lambertville NJ, USA
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    Default

    Thanks, I was not previously aware of all this controversy regarding labelling of OA. In fact, the instructor of my intro to beekeeping class actually told us it was wood bleach, and he has been keeping bees for 50 years. Will my darknet OA actually kill varroa?

  4. #23
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    Dec 2017
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    Lincoln, NE, USA
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    10

    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuberboy View Post
    I trusted what I was getting from Mann Lake would be the correct product. On the invoice it is listed as OA/Wood Bleach, $10 for 1lb.
    It will work just fine. They market it to be used as a wood bleach to stay within the rules. If the beek uses it as a treatment, it's on the beek.

  5. #24
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    Jan 2014
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    Brazoria County, Texas
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/UK-Oxalic-A...item3d26665427

    Try these. You'll toss the powder.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Yes tuberboy, oa is oa. The purity level is the
    Catch phrase. Im.no chemists or a smart guy. But all these chemicals are basically the same in the biggest degree. All chemicals are with some form of inert or non inert ingredients. Probably from the standpoint of lab use. For us , I'd say as long as there aren't any added ingredients other than the chemical being produced. I'd say it should be fine. A label is just for intended purpose of selling. Most mfg. Companies don't or won't go as far as spending tens of thousands of dollars for a label to treat bees with a common acid to treat an insect. They see this as a minute sale to hobbyist. And doesnt affect their bottom line as to their real sale niche. So they let the specialty bee guys do that little bit of work, to satisfy the very small market in that target group. It's basically All the same stuff. Just look at the label.

  7. #26
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    Aug 2015
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    Goshen, NY, USA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    After some surfing this is the best I could find at a price a bee keeper would pay.

    https://www.factorydirectchemicals.c...saAsGcEALw_wcB

  8. #27
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    Aug 2015
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    Goshen, NY, USA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    I just ordered some through them. They charge sales tax but free shipping!

    2 lbs in a resealable storage container, $21.57. It's 99.6% which is amazing.

    I didn't see an assay sheet so I cant speak to the heavy metal concentrations
    but this is laboratory grade stuff, way better than industrial grade like wood bleach,
    not reagent grade which would be 20 times the price, but a really good
    quality to price factor...

  9. #28
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Richinbama View Post
    A label is just for intended purpose of selling.
    This is actually not true for a pesticide, the label is a legal document describing it's useage.

    If you actually believe it's just marketing propoganda, keep that in mind if you ever have an event where your bees are dying from somebody spraying off label stuff in your neighborhood. It's just a label, doesn't mean anything....

  10. #29
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    Massillon, Ohio
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by bob393 View Post
    ..... but this is laboratory grade stuff, way better than industrial grade like wood bleach, ....
    What is it that you look for when comparing the two? Where can that information be found?
    The container only says, Oxalic Acid. It would be interesting to know what the other .4% is comprised of.
    To everything there is a season....

  11. #30
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    O.a. is not intended to be a insecticide. It's a cleaning/bleaching acid. Used to remove rust, removed iron deposits form wood, cutting and grinding polishing marble, ect. Look it up in a dictionary. Not trying to.be contrary, but this is a relatively new use (Last 25-30 yrs) an off labeled use, that is now accepted for killing a mites, because it's a lethal vapor produced from burning/heating this particular acid.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    The 'mode of action' of oxalic acid in controlling varroa mites is unlikely to be through the vapor. Consider that an alternate form of application is to mix it with a weak sugar syrup and dribble/spray it between the frames. More likely is that the vaporization is just one means of getting a fine layer of oxalic powder distributed on everything in the hive.

    My bet is that the oxalic acid actually attacks the varroa mites through their 'feet'.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #32
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    So in reality, the vapor is the carrier of the agent o.a. crystals that then kill the mites Kewl.
    Last edited by Richinbama; 04-04-2018 at 08:01 AM.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Richinbama View Post
    So in reality, the vapor is the carrier of the agent o.a. crystals that then kill the bees. Kewl.
    You might want to rethink that...
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Oxalic acid vaporization (really sublimation, if you want to get technical about it) is not an off-label use. In the US, it is an EPA-approved miticide for use on honey bee colonies for the control of V. destructor.

    Nancy

  16. #35
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    Powhatan, Virginia, USA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Nancy
    In this case the words do make a difference. You are correct that the term is sublimation, going directly from a solid to a gas. The off label use is different in the case of a pesticide. Brushy Mountain did the legwork with the EPA to get the label approved for their product, not the generic oxalic acid.
    Wood bleach is labeled for that purpose and no other.
    Same with using permethrin for small hive beetle, if it is not specifically on the label it is an 'off label' use and the user is libel for any issues from misuse.
    Bt k works on lepidoptera species (wax moths) but is only labeled for cabbage worms, loopers, tent catapillers etc. So is also an off label issue.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by John Davis View Post
    Nancy
    In this case the words do make a difference. You are correct that the term is sublimation, going directly from a solid to a gas. The off label use is different in the case of a pesticide. Brushy Mountain did the legwork with the EPA to get the label approved for their product, not the generic oxalic acid.
    Wood bleach is labeled for that purpose and no other.
    Same with using permethrin for small hive beetle, if it is not specifically on the label it is an 'off label' use and the user is libel for any issues from misuse.
    Bt k works on lepidoptera species (wax moths) but is only labeled for cabbage worms, loopers, tent catapillers etc. So is also an off label issue.
    Exactly it Coalesces in the Hive on Bee's and all. Have seen a few after treatment have a Snow covering wiggling and looking at me. Not Dying at all.
    However they mite be overdosed. :-) I love my mite drop.

  18. #37
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    Goshen, NY, USA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    What is it that you look for when comparing the two? Where can that information be found?
    The container only says, Oxalic Acid. It would be interesting to know what the other .4% is comprised of.
    I just shot them an email to see if they have a data sheet on it. Not an MSDS.
    I hope they don't come back with Inert Ingredients.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Monarch View Post
    It will work just fine. They market it to be used as a wood bleach to stay within the rules. If the beek uses it as a treatment, it's on the beek.
    Do any of you really believe the EPA boogie man is going to spy on you so he can fine you thousands of dollars because of you using OA that doesnt have Brushy Mountain's lable on it.

  20. #39
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    Chicago, ILL. USA
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper1d View Post
    Do any of you really believe the EPA boogie man is going to spy on you so he can fine you thousands of dollars because of you using OA that doesnt have Brushy Mountain's lable on it.
    No.
    But is that the point? If I use something off label, why can't my neighbor spray their lawn twice a day?

  21. #40
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Note that in addition to required Federal EPA approval & registration of all pesticides, individual states also must complete registration of those pesticides as well. If state approval/registration of a specific pesticide has not been completed, then it doesn't matter if Federal approval has been granted or not, and that pesticide use is prohibited under State law.

    For many months after US EPA approval of oxalic acid was granted, Brushy Mtn maintained a web page showing the status of the various state approvals. State approval was not quick, or automatic, and not free of cost either.

    While I don't see that page currently on the Brushy site, the oxalic acid product page does clearly state that OA cannot be shipped to California. A reasonable conclusion is that use of oxalic acid as a varroacide in California is not legal under state law as it has not been granted California registration.

    The individual state approval process also means that individual state agencies can can take action against those who violate state pesticide application rules. Keep in mind that if it doesn't come out of a properly labeled container, its not legal.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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