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Thread: oxalic acid

  1. #61
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by MJC417 View Post
    I noticed that the Savogran oa sublimates faster and doesn't create as much vapor. The Florida Lab oa is slower to sublimate (about 30 to 40 seconds) and creates more vapor that looks thicker.
    If you see a visible difference when vaporizing, my GUESS is that the product that creates more vapor and is slower to sublimate has absorbed more moisture from the air than the other product.

    Absorbed water would be released as steam (vapor) and would slow down the vaporization compared to the same volume of drier OA.

    It could be that storage conditions/container allowed differing amounts of moisture to be absorbed from the air.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Is there a recommended method of drying out OA crystals that have absorbed moisture and become slightly damp?
    To everything there is a season....

  4. #63
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    Is there a recommended method of drying out OA crystals that have absorbed moisture and become slightly damp?
    Put them in a vaporizer. First step in the process, when it reaches 100C (212f) the moisture boils off. Technically we are not using Oxalic Acid, we are using Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, which is one molecule of OA combined with 2 molecules of water. During the vaporization process, first step is to boil off the water molecules which leaves dry OA in the vaporizer, then when it reaches 157C (315f) the dry OA will start to sublimate.

    My experience with damp OA, it tends to boil and bubble more in the first step, throws off a lot more steam. It also can cause the dry OA to be bridged up off the pan, so you get little clumps of white stuff leftover that dont sublimate properly.

    Our climate is always high humidity, and after you open a tub, it will take on some moisture, so we often end up using it again with a higher moisture content. I know it's become moist if I have to clean the pan more often.

  5. #64
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by MJC417 View Post
    The Florida Lab oa is slower to sublimate (about 30 to 40 seconds) and creates more vapor that looks thicker.
    I only use the stuff we get from Medivet, but I have noticed a huge difference between a warm and a cool day. Takes twice as long for one load to finish when outside temps are in the 5C range as compared to 20C range. The vapor looks different too.

  6. #65
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    My experience with damp OA, it tends to boil and bubble more in the first step, throws off a lot more steam. It also can cause the dry OA to be bridged up off the pan, so you get little clumps of white stuff leftover that dont sublimate properly.
    I've seen this condition come up in threads occasionally and damp OA usually is the culprit. Just wondering if anyone may have figured out how to safely dry out damp crystals before use, to avoid some of the negative effects described above.
    To everything there is a season....

  7. #66
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    I haven't figured out how to dry it down again, after is has become damp (I even thought of using my dehyrdator, but haven't had the courage to do that, even though it only goes to 140F.)

    My work around is this; open the little Savogran pot and immediately divide the contents into fifths and put all sections into zip lock freezer bags. Press the air out, and then double-bag with another set of ziplock freezer bags. Store the bags in an old Savogran canister, inside a quart-sized plastic paint bucket with a snap on lid. One of the bags will be my working source. It lives in a Savogran pot and I dispense OA from it, twisting the top of the plastic bag closed between measuring out the OA. Between sessions it is once again zip-locked closed. It is bad form for a pesticide applicator to remove anything from its original container, but this is the only method I have figured out that allows me to use most of the stuff while it still stays dry enough for good performance.

    I have quite a quantity of OA that has past its prime for vaporizing, but would probably work fine for bleaching wood. I wonder if it has any anti-EFB qualities to it?

    Nancy

  8. #67
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    I have found that a residue builds up on the hot surface and this will slow down sublimation, so one needs to keep the hot surface clean.
    Johno

  9. #68
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    The crux of the oxalic acid registration situation is that plain old generic oxalic acid is not a pesticide in the eyes of the EPA. It is 'wood bleach' which is not a pesticide. Its only because Brushy Mountain jumped though the Federal and various State hoops to register their product as a EPA registered and approved pesticide for varroa control that the product gets an EPA pesticide registration number. I'm confident that you won't find an EPA pesticide registration number on that Florida Labs package because it is not an EPA registered pesticide. Go ahead - post a picture and prove me wrong!





    And as some people seem to be making assumptions about what my personal opinion about this whole registered / non-registered issue is, NONE of what I posted above in this thread regarding EPA registered pesticides reflects my opinions. All I did was summarize what the Federal EPA and related State regulations say.

    The EPA registration does, in fact, cover pure generic OA. In fact, that is the Primary registration number. EPA reg # 912661-1. There are also 2 'Distributor' numbers; 91266-1-73291 and 91266-1-91832. The later is the number used by Brushy Mountain on their retail labels. BTW, you may be surprised to learn that BM is not the only bee supplies retailer selling OA. Dadant also sells OA, using the same EPA # as BM. There might now be others doing the same thing.

    I am not at the site where my OA is located. I will update when I have the number used by FLALAB. with a pic for doubting Thomas.

    The truth is, BM does not own the EPA registration number. The number is assigned to the chemical. EPA requires that distributors selling the product label it for intended purpose. This means that while Savorgan labels their product for wood bleaching use, BM and others label the same chemical for miticide use.
    https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20150310.pdf


    We owe Brushy Mountain a huge debt of gratitude for all the work they did to get OA labeled for our intended use, but we do not owe them sole custom.

    https://www.epa.gov/pollinator-prote...ites-bee-hives

  10. #69
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hops Brewster View Post
    BTW, you may be surprised to learn that BM is not the only bee supplies retailer selling OA. Dadant also sells OA, using the same EPA # as BM.
    Surprised? Hardly --- in fact I posted about Dadant also selling EPA registered OA with a Brushy label earlier in this thread at post #21, here:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...lic-acid/page2


    If you took a look at that Dadant package, you would see that it actually has a Brushy Mountain label on it. Dadant is buying the Brushy Mountain EPA registered pesticide to resell.

    I am still waiting to see any evidence (link, photo, etc) that anyone other than Brushy Mountain (and its dealers and resellers) is selling EPA registered oxalic acid labeled for varroa control.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #70
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Hops Brewster View Post
    The truth is, BM does not own the EPA registration number. The number is assigned to the chemical. EPA requires that distributors selling the product label it for intended purpose. This means that while Savorgan labels their product for wood bleaching use, BM and others label the same chemical for miticide use.
    https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20150310.pdf
    That linked PDF is interesting. Here in Canada, the registration for use as a miticide was done by the Canadian Honey Council, ie, beekeepers themselves. I've often wondered why one of the organizations south of us didn't do the same. but if I read that PDF correctly, what it says for 'name and address of registrant', is 'United Statues Department of Agriculture' with the address of the Beltsville lab. Page 3 of the pdf is indeed a pesticide label for Oxalic Dihydrate to be used as a miticide in beehives. What I find interesting, other than the address of the registrant and legal formatting differences between jurasdiction, it's is taken essentially word for word from the label CHC has had for years.

    I find this to be an interesting twist on the subject of pesticide labelling for OA. If the dept of ag is the registrant, who is allowed to sell it using that registration ?

  12. #71
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Well then if generic OA is not a pesticide then I guess I am not using a pesticide on my hives!!!

  13. #72
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    The "normal" process in the US for approving a "new" pesticide is that the manufacturer of that proposed pesticide submits an EPA application, the large fee, and pays for expensive studies to prove that the new pesticide is suitable for the job. Assuming all that gets approved, then the manufacturer also has to pay fees and get approval from each individual state that they wish to sell their product in. With most pesticides, there is a deep-pocketed manufacturer willing to pony up the money, in exchange for their expectation of recouping that investment with future sales priced to repay their upfront costs.

    However, in the US, even though the evidence was that oxalic acid was effective as a varroacide, no oxalic manufacturer (such as Savogran) could be found to sponsor the approval of OA as a pesticide (meaning no manufacturer was willing to pay for the fees and studies). In the end, the solution was to have the USDA be the applicant requesting approval, and instead of expensive new studies, the Canadian studies paperwork was accepted by the US EPA without further testing. I expect that USDA got the application fee waived as they are a 'sister' agency. Very unusual situation, to say the least.

    But, still a "manufacturer" of oxalic was needed for EPA paperwork and to pay for state approvals. Brushy Mtn took on that expense and paperwork hassle, and as such fills the role that normally is played by the actual product manufacturer. No doubt Brushy just uses a contract manufacturer to provide the OA that Brushy sells. But, if something goes wrong, its Brushy Mtn that is on the hook from an EPA perspective.

    AFAIK, no other vendor has gone through with the steps to be able to legally sell "registered" oxalic acid as a varroa pesticide.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  14. #73
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    It is the product and its label that is registered with the EPA, not the Vendor. (Distributor in EPA language). Oxalic acid has a generic registration number for its pure form because OA is a generic product. It is produced and sold by various distributors for various purposes. The very same OA that is sold as a pesticide, with the correct EPA labeling, is the very same OA that is sold as a chemical reagent with its required labeling.

    There are any number of distributors who buy OA in bulk from the manufacturers, repackage and/or relabel it, and sell it for their own intended purpose, such as wood bleach. Savogran may or may not be a manufacturer. For all I know they could be one of the resellers. Even you or I could buy OA in bulk, repackage it and sell it as miticide, as long as we provided the correct label for using it for that purpose. Or you could repackage it and sell it intended and labeled as wood bleach without the EPA label for insecticide. BM doesn't have exclusive rights to the EPA registration number. It is a public document for a generic product! Again, thanks to BM for doing the legwork.

    Now, If BM had engineered OA and held a patent on it, and also obtained the EPA label, then we could be having a different conversation.

    A sidenote ; Both Brushy Mountain and Dadant sell their OA in a foil pouch, consistent with the foil pouch that FLALA sells their OA in. Other providers of OA sell in plastic tubs. For all we know, BM could be buying their OA from FLALAB.

  15. #74
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    The only "legal" pesticides under Federal law (FIFRA) are those that come out of a container accompanied by full registration application and use label documents. That document must specify the target pest (varroa, in this case) and the correct dosage and application techniques to control varroa in a bee hive.

    Note that what Mann Lake is selling is oxalic acid labeled as "wood bleach", and is not a registered pesticide under Federal law.

    So, here is my challenge -- aside from Brushy Mountain and its dealers and resellers (including Dadant), where is a single link to or photo of a similar EPA registered [oxalic acid as a varroa pesticide] product vendor? Anyone?
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  16. #75
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Thanks Hops Brewster you have nailed it.There are lots of chemicals that are done the very same way.I am really tired of seeing people arguing and trying to get technical on this.Everyone go treat your bees and take care of them and dont worry about it.Its time for this thread to end.

  17. #76
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Amen snapper. Lol, seems a bit crazy at times. Lots were subliminating hives before anyone got technical about a label, now they are fogging without a label, and crack pipe method for o.a. before all the new fancy, and expensive gadgets. I'm a new beek, and have read tons about these things. Have learned allot of pros and cons on allot of these methods. I still have questions about many as well. I'm not into a epa label, ill.look up a msds sheet or ask experienced folks here that has tried a particular method. or who packages the same item with a different label, even though it's the same product. All chemicals have a product number listed by epa, and all have msds sheets for their intended use. Ect. Ect. Some will list this number , some will not. Also some will have instructions , and some will not. Big chemical mfgs. Will usually not go through the process, or even a label process because.... they sell tons and tons of a chemical, and don't care about a few bucks from small niche markets like ours. They sell to others and let them do that stuff. Just not enough money in it for them. Just seems to my reasoning, that this is usually the case. Just a thought on this label thing.

  18. #77

    Default Re: oxalic acid

    I know this is an oid thread, but I read online (I know) that only brushymountain OA has EPA approval can anybody confirm or deny?

  19. #78
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    No one 'owns' an EPA approval, it is a public document. Oxalic acid is a common, naturally occurring chemical and no one owns a patent on it. Some producer or another might have patent on production method, but not the chemical itself.
    To sell OA as a miticide, the vendor must include the EPA label with the package.

    There are other beekeeping vendors selling OA as a miticide, such as Dadant. I can't speak for Dadant, but I presume they checked with there lawyers before selling a chemical as a Federally regulated miticide. It would be business suicide otherwise!
    I bought mine from Florida Labs, just one of many manufacturers of OA, and they included the required EPA label.
    Never ask a barber it he thinks you need a haircut.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: oxalic acid

    Quote Originally Posted by leww37334 View Post
    I know this is an oid thread, but I read online (I know) that only brushymountain OA has EPA approval can anybody confirm or deny?
    Now that BM is now defunct, another manufacturer has packaged OA with the approved for use in beehive label. I'll try to find out who and post.
    Here it is. Betterbee is selling Api-Bioxal, which is OA.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

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