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  1. #41
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    Default Re: I want in

    MSL,

    I think you touched on it a little bit... most thinking revolves around the mite being static, but I believe they're changing as well. I believe there are pockets of success already, don't get me wrong, my issue is this, local adaptation may play a role, but varroa is varroa whether you're on the east coast or the west coast. Given forage abundance is about the same, I believe those 'genetics' that hold up in one area should hold up in others for the most part but it doesn't seem to be occurring all that much. To me, this is not success. Even if I'm able to attain being TF here, I would expect those bees to hold up just about anywhere else to varroa and anything different I wouldn't consider a complete success.

    I agree with your splitting treadmill comment as well. I don't consider that being a success, simply maintaining by removals, swarm collection, and splitting. Success with bees means multiplication (increase) of what survives and that it keeps on surviving, collecting other bees is just a bonus.

    The link didn't work btw so I couldn't read the article. I'm also not talking about just surviving, I'm talking varroa tolerance/resistance.

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  3. #42

    Default Re: I want in

    The link:
    Abstract
    Honey bee colonies exhibit a wide range of variation in their behaviour, depending on their genetic origin and environmental factors. The COLOSS Genotype-Environment Interactions Experiment gave us the opportunity to investigate the phenotypic expression of the swarming, defensive and hygienic behaviour of 16 genotypes from five different honey bee subspecies in various environmental conditions. In 2010 and 2011, a total of 621 colonies were monitored and tested according to a standard protocol for estimation of expression of these three behavioural traits. The factors: year, genotype, location, origin (local vs. non-local) and season (only for hygienic behaviour) were considered in statistical analyses to estimate their effect on expression of these behaviours. The general outcome of our study is that genotype and location have a significant effect on the analysed traits. For all characters, the variability among locations was higher than the variability among genotypes. We also detected significant variability between the genotypes from different subspecies, generally confirming their known characteristics, although great variability within subspecies was noticed. Defensive and swarming behaviour were each positively correlated across the two years, confirming genetic control of these characters. Defensive behaviour was lower in colonies of local origin, and was negatively correlated with hygienic behaviour. Hygienic behaviour was strongly influenced by the season in which the test was performed. The results from our study demonstrate that there is great behavioural variation among different subspecies and strains. Sustainable protection of local genotypes can be promoted by combining conservation efforts with selection and breeding to improve the appreciation by beekeepers of native stock.
    Defensive behavior was lower in colonies of local origin and was negatively correlated with hygienic behavior.
    Hygienic behavior was strongly influenced by the season in which the test was performed.
    Interesting.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: I want in

    If I interpreted it correctly, more defensive means more swarmy, and less hygienic. More hygienic means less defensive, which means less swarmy as well.

  5. #44
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    Default Re: I want in

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    MSL,

    I think you touched on it a little bit... most thinking revolves around the mite being static, but I believe they're changing as well. I believe there are pockets of success already, don't get me wrong, my issue is this, local adaptation may play a role, but varroa is varroa whether you're on the east coast or the west coast. Given forage abundance is about the same, I believe those 'genetics' that hold up in one area should hold up in others for the most part but it doesn't seem to be occurring all that much. To me, this is not success. Even if I'm able to attain being TF here, I would expect those bees to hold up just about anywhere else to varroa and anything different I wouldn't consider a complete success.

    I agree with your splitting treadmill comment as well. I don't consider that being a success, simply maintaining by removals, swarm collection, and splitting. Success with bees means multiplication (increase) of what survives and that it keeps on surviving, collecting other bees is just a bonus.

    The link didn't work btw so I couldn't read the article. I'm also not talking about just surviving, I'm talking varroa tolerance/resistance.
    I think the quest for a bullet proof bee is fool hardy. Pathogen environments are not likely to be the same region to region. So local adaptation may be possible, but to expect them the perform the same in another environment is not logical. My local sheep farmer doesn't expect new genetics in her setting to do well. They are fine where they came from and look great when they arrive. But they go down hill. Their daughters do fine. I think varroa puts an exclamation point on this basic principle. You might have been able to get away with this pre varroa, with little treatment but now these bees are tipped over the edge and can't make it put into new environments. We should remember that there were disease incidents pre varroa and everything wasn't rosy. If we look back I think a good chunk of these problems was associated with the movement of bees.

    So JRG, why can't you seem to get anything that holds up? I would look to the ecological context in which you are trying to do this. If you lack feral bees or places where they can thrive, then managed beekeeping is having an undue influence on local bee genetics and the pathogen environment. Adaptation is possible, the Arnot forest shows it is possible, but there is a limit to what the system can deal with. Ie. if it is overrun by removal of selection pressure generally, and the movement of bees and their pathogens.
    Last edited by lharder; 03-27-2018 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: I want in

    Yes, but when we're looking at varroa, what does local adaptation have to do with bees controlling mites? Different areas might have higher pressure, understandable, but the mechanics of varroa are the same coast to coast. Now, whether the bees do well being moved around, that's another issue.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: I want in

    Not quite
    "We estimated a significant negative correlation between the scores of defensive and hygienic behaviour in both test years, which may suggest that defensive bees are more hygienic. "

    now if you dig threw the notes
    "The lack of long-lasting intensive artificial selection in this somewhat neglected subspecies has probably contributed to retaining the natural expression of this trait "

    "The lowest scores (corresponding to the highest expression of defensive behaviour) were found in MelP and MelF"

    "A significantly higher expression of swarming tendency was detected in the colonies of the MelF genotype, originating from a population in France that was reported as “varroa surviving bees”

    and going back to the quote that started this, and my orgonial point
    maintaining honey bees with optimal behavior from a beekeeping point of view, at the same time maintains the demand for continuous artificial selection, at least until fixation occurs, i.e. unfavorable trait are removed entirely from a population. Such fixation, however, has not been achieved, which is a strong argument for the idea that honey bees should not be considered as “domesticated”


    Without ongoing artificial selection by the beekeeper the stock will drift back to wild type. This happens when the only section pressure is survival, and its what we often see in bonded type stock and ferals. Small unproductive colonys that are swarmy and aggressive.
    This is why the hand of the beekeeper is NEEDED , Kefuss makes a big point of this in his soft bond... to paraphrase- only look for resistance in your 20% best honey producers, resistance is useless if they aren't productive

    swinging back to TF stock
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...592-015-0412-8 is a good read detaling the know populations and mentions the pan euro study
    and the french stock
    Today, the Avignon mite-resistant population is not isolated but has maintained mite-resistant characteristics. The colonies however can be aggressive and typically do not produce much honey. In a recent Europe-wide genotype-environment interaction, experiment descendant colonies from the Avignon mite-resistant population did not demonstrate better or worse survival in different environments compared to unselected local colonies


    After 20+ years of surviving TF and mostly unmanged, move the stock and it fails. Selecting for just survival and you can't slect for pressures and stress you don't have.

    edit- people posting while I was typeing
    I think the quest for a bullet proof bee is fool hardy. Pathogen environments are not likely to be the same region to region. So local adaptation may be possible, but to expect them the perform the same in another environment is not logical.
    I agree!
    Even apis cerana is far form bullet proof, especially if manged in a commercial setting, keepers often induce brood breaks and use soft Tx to maintain there hive counts
    , but when we're looking at varroa, what does local adaptation have to do with bees controlling mites?
    Now, whether the bees do well being moved around, that's another issue.
    you answered your own question
    best case for restiance is mites become a stress issue, much like EFB.... non adaped bees are under more stress
    If you just select for survival, you only slect for bees that survive the local mite pressure... move to an area with a different one, or one with out summer brood break, or a winter one for that matter and they collapse under the larger mite loads
    Last edited by msl; 03-27-2018 at 12:36 PM.

  8. #47
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    Default Re: I want in

    JRG
    Yes, but when we're looking at varroa, what does local adaptation have to do with bees controlling mites? Different areas might have higher pressure, understandable, but the mechanics of varroa are the same coast to coast. Now, whether the bees do well being moved around, that's another issue.
    What you say on the face of it makes sence but there must be more going on. If you took a maple tree from florida that is the genetic mirror of one that is in Missouri but when planted in MO, it does not do the same. It uses the same sunshine and the same dirt and the same water. There are no extra maple parisites in MO that are not in Florida but yet the tree will not prosper.

    The problim is that even studying, everything that is part of the cause and effect can not be seen. Mites are the same and bees are the same but how they do what they do is not the same and it is not known why. Seeley makes hypothosis of what he thinks is helping and the other places that see bees reducing the mite reprodution know that it is happening but admit they don't know the how of it. Even the mite that is the same as you say, may be reacting to the pressures put on it.

    This is why the very high kill multicides are looked at as dangerous cause if you only leave the baddest of the 3 percent of mites that were in the hive then there is no compitition from less bad mites and so the product last even less long before all the mites left are resistant.

    It is a war of nature and so breeding a weaker bee may have the effect of breeding a weaker mite and moving the bee to where that has not happened may not work well.

    I read this ideal on a farm animal parisite study and not about bees but if nature holds true on action and reaction, then it makes sence to me. If nature is a constant arms race with both sides effecting each other, then moving to places that have differrent pressures would have differrent stresses.
    Cheers
    gww
    ps MSL apparantly type faster then me as is shown with his even bigger post.
    zone 5b

  9. #48
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    Default Re: I want in

    Msl
    This happens when the only section pressure is survival, and its what we often see in bonded type stock and ferals. Small unproductive colonys that are swarmy and aggressive.
    This assumes that the only bees that will be alive to pick from have the traits you list when in real life, of the ones that survive, you still have the choice of picking the ones that did the best on other traits too. I understand the argument but not the fact that the argument claims.

    After 20+ years of surviving TF and mostly unmanged, move the stock and it fails. Selecting for just survival and you can't slect for pressures and stress you don't have.
    This on the other hand, I agree with and is why all those out there wanting a magic pill garentee that if I move your queen here will you garrentee that I will never have a problim with mites is to high a standard being used to call all those who do have bees off treatments as being lyers. It is also why everyone who wants to keep treatment free bees should at least start that way and see how thier area is now so they can assess future possibilities and cost so thier decision from that point can be made with knowlage rather then two sides saying it is possible or it is not possible. Then if you lose all your hives, you can decide it is immpossible for now but if you lose 30 percent of your hives but you want to lose 10 percent, you have a chance of deciding how you might bring that 30 percent down.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  10. #49

    Default Re: I want in

    https://oberprima.com/biologie/gendrift/

    >>Microevolution is an intraspecific evolution that takes a relatively short time and involves and causes a change in the gene pool. Macroevolution is the uninterrupted continuation of microevolution in systematic large groups. These large groups were created by many small evolution. This is called additive typogenesis.

    Coincidence or necessity?

    Mutation, gene drift and recombination happen by chance. That's really undisputed. However, the importance of these processes remains open in the synthetic theory of evolution and can not really be explained or explored so well. Many things actually happen by chance and are not predictable.

    System theory or neutrality theory?

    According to systems theory, two structures and functions of living things interact in such a way that selection forces act on living beings not only from the outside, but also from the inside. Gene mutations would therefore almost inevitably be selective. According to the theory of neutrality, on the other hand, molecular changes can accumulate independently of selection and are then subject to gene drift.

    Example of the gene drift: the founder effect
    If an individual is separated from his source population by drifting and can no longer return geographically or spatially, ie is isolated, he is the founder of a new population. The gene pool created by establishing a new population is initially random. It is a part of the large gene pool of the initial population. The allele frequency (or the gene pool, both terms mean the same) now differs between the two populations. There can be no gene flow through the isolation. As a result, the low variability of genes in the newly established population persists and the two gene pools each have completely different alleles and genes in the gene pool.

    An event that kills many individuals or separates them from their population drastically reduces the existing gene pool and results in a genetic drift. The remaining population is now a founding population. The gene drift caused by the bottleneck effect for a variety of supply of genes and alleles and a limited allele frequency.<<

    Microevolution queens being introduced and daughters bred into a microevolutioned different location. Needs some time until coexistence with mites is established again. Patience? We donīt have it.
    Or use locals which are treated and so have to be regressed to a more tolerant state. Again this needs some time.
    Accept losses or do IPM and try to influence your area.
    In the end losses will vary in the locations and if you want to be tf you have to consider this.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: I want in

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Yes, but when we're looking at varroa, what does local adaptation have to do with bees controlling mites? Different areas might have higher pressure, understandable, but the mechanics of varroa are the same coast to coast. Now, whether the bees do well being moved around, that's another issue.
    No its not because a hive has finite resources to deal with all their problems. So if they are inefficient in other areas, they would have less resources to deal with varroa. For instance, my late nucs got hammered by robbing during an extreme dearth. They didn't have much energy for dealing with anything else but defending themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if varroa reared its head in these circumstances. So the external forces besides varroa affect varroa. Bees not only have to deal with varroa, but must give it the right allocation of resources in relation to everything else. It wouldn't be the same place to place.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: I want in

    What happens or what comparisons/differences can we make with certainty to a colony w/ varroa mites over-wintered in the tropics as opposed to BC Canada, or northern Wisconsin? With our long winters (also a long break in brood rearing) can we Northerners 'generally' expect good outcomes with our survivors? It used to be that way, but no longer.


    As the only known beekeeper in our immediate area (at least a five mile radius) for many, many years, we have slowly/increasingly been surrounded by a party attempting to keep upwards of 300 colonies, divided into yards of a dozen or so. They can be seen along out our county highway's and town roads but we've been told they're being placed all over the County, mostly farm land, vacant or used hay fields that they've been given permission to do so.

    As this commercial endeavor (began just 2 years ago) has grown, I believe our own TF bees have suffered the consequences of the the over saturation. The closest yard is a quarter mile from us, as the bees fly, but as already said, we are now surrounded by this persons bees, that are coming from who knows where. And we are literally starting from scratch (Local/regional bees rule!) this season after keeping our yard of TF bees alive for over a decade....purchasing local NUC's from a fellow TF advocate, but one that still treats when needed, but only then.

    Could this experience indicate that we've been varroa bombed by this new influx of colonies? What can we do about it now...besides join the always treat movement?

  13. #52
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    Default Re: I want in

    Everyone in the discussion,

    I see the main arguments are still 'other' stressors. But I'm kind of factoring those out... I'm talking, you get new stocks, feed and treat em for mites the first year, the following year they do fine but still end up miting out. No mite bombs, good forage, no robbing issues, put up good honey stores by end of summer. I see the main points of TF 'breeding', or lack there of as localized evolution, but yet, when you eliminate the stressors there still seems to be a huge lacking of anything that seems heritable, regarding mites specifically.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: I want in

    JRG
    But I'm kind of factoring those out...
    But in factoring them out, it means you know all of them to factor out. Every body else can only give educated guesses but admit that they don't know.

    I was factoring out the same type of stuff with the maple tree but the maple tree still does not do as good from florida in missouri as the tree from missouri does.

    Perhaps there are things going on that we don't know the effect.

    I know that I don't know, but what I do know is packages are bought in my bee club from the southern states and fed and treated and they still die here at a higher rate then the guys keeping mutts. Under what you say, that should not happen.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  15. #54

    Default Re: I want in

    no silver bullet

  16. #55
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    Default Re: I want in

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    JRG


    But in factoring them out, it means you know all of them to factor out. Every body else can only give educated guesses but admit that they don't know.

    I was factoring out the same type of stuff with the maple tree but the maple tree still does not do as good from florida in missouri as the tree from missouri does.

    Perhaps there are things going on that we don't know the effect.

    I know that I don't know, but what I do know is packages are bought in my bee club from the southern states and fed and treated and they still die here at a higher rate then the guys keeping mutts. Under what you say, that should not happen.
    Cheers
    gww
    That's not what I'm saying....

  17. #56
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    Default Re: I want in

    JRG
    there still seems to be a huge lacking of anything that seems heritable, regarding mites specifically.
    Ok
    Look at it this way. Randy makes a list of all the things that bees might use to fight mites. The brood could commit harry carry, the bees could heat the brood nest one degree higher then the do now for a short period, the bees could make the smell change enough that they can reconize infected brood, they can bite the mite of do something to cause the mite to not be as fertle etc. All of these things could be just fringe actions but not killing actions based on how much time the bees have to spend on it. So they could work at such a low level that the ideal is not to kill off the mite but more to live with the mite. Living with the mite might be much less easy to run checks on then killing the mite and the ballance might be more easily tipped one way or the other. However, if the bees are living better, or worse then when the mite first arrived, the conclution has to be that there has been some change or rearanging of what was already there. Some proofs behind this are where they checked the dna of feral against managed bees and found a differrance or where they had bees on an island and its dna was not the same as off the island.

    Change or just rearangement adds up to the same thing. So if the bees had a 90 percent die off when mites first arrived and now have a fifty percent die off and stable population, the leap has to be made that something was heritable and mite spicific. There is no other way it could be looked at.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  18. #57

    Default Re: I want in

    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy View Post

    Could this experience indicate that we've been varroa bombed by this new influx of colonies? What can we do about it now...besides join the always treat movement?
    This is my starting situation with stock which is on itīs way to be more tolerant but still needs some time. Iīm not starting chemical treatments with my more tolerant stock. Iīm planning to propagate better genetics, do IPM like brood culling or brood brakes, queen shifting. Let the best queens hive throw the drones.

    I will try to mate my queens at the most isolated location I have ( I have 4 now, one is isolated more than the others), or search for a better isolated mating place or ask my co-worker to inseminate them with his drones`semen. He will exchange material with me.
    I will use robber screens throughout the year.

    If you need to have the income itīs harder. Every new input of mite virus will likely be a setback for some time, but maybe your stock can take it. Kefuss imports new mites into his beeyards to trigger resistance.
    In 7-9 days I will be at the conference where Kefuss and others speak. In he evenings we wlii all meet at the bar and some discussions will go on.
    I hope to get more ideas.
    What I will not do is to go back to any treating treadmill like my neighbors do.
    Last edited by 1102009; 03-29-2018 at 12:56 AM.

  19. #58

    Default Re: I want in

    https://wordpress.basiszuechter.de/w...raturliste.pdf

    https://basiszuechter.de/basiszucht/...wolfgang-golz/

    https://basiszuechter.de/basiszucht/...wolfgang-golz/

    This is offset by the many years of experience of the breeders. Obviously, the authors of the "fairy tale" mentioned above have never attempted to read out a maternal lineage over several generations of open mating. Otherwise, they would know that the dreaded split-up of the F2 generation provides the basis for rigorous selection. If one evaluates the best colonies in this generation - which most closely corresponds to one's own ideas of breeding - for multiplication, while the others get their queens shifted and repeats this in each generation conscientiously, so you get within a few years a balanced, robust stock with good benefits.
    It should also be mentioned here again: The essence of the breed is the constant selection in each bee generation. This does not exempt controlled mating.
    When losses have to be compensated by purchase, care should be taken to procure stock only from areas with similar or harsher conditions than their own. Otherwise, the next losses are already expected.
    If one believes that wintering is ensured by combining hives, it will work well for a while, but such a bee will not inherit any winter resistance and will go down with less strength.
    There is much that can be argued for and against it, but it clearly emerges from all the comparisons: huge losses are only possible in the case of a genetic error situation, which was once caused by climatically unsuitable bee material and secondly by a lack of sharp selection.
    But let's go back to the cause of the great loss of colonies.
    Deep impact is the weather. This became very clear to us in the wet triangle between the Elbe and the Weser in 1984.
    The small climate of the stand and the state of the traditional flow were two other striking factors.
    The hives also played a role. So it has in the winter of 1984/85 in Upper Bavaria at the free-standing single-walled magazines
    given much higher losses compared to those living in a bee house in the apiary.
    The strain of a late flow, which the colonies used are often genetically unsuitable for their origins, can ruin entire apiaries.
    This was confirmed to me this year by a beekeeper who uses his own isolated mating place to mate his Buckfast queens when he says that buyers of his queens often complained that some of the queens they bought did not convince. The breeder says: "You can assume that one third is really good, one third is usable and one third is just bad. That's the way it is and no honest breeder will claim otherwise. "
    Explanations to 2: Basically we know very little about the diverse relationships of the bee colony to its environment. But what does his environment mean? How can one speak of local adaptation when migrating everywhere and achieving the higher harvests? Well, the migrating is usually just a break in the locality of the bee colony. In the crucial phase, namely hibernation and crossing into spring, our colonies are usually localized. The time of the migration falls into the warmer time of the year and does not make such a crucial demand on the bee colony regarding its residency. The situation is different with the flow combinations prescribed by beekeepers to the bee colony. Already here bees must be adapted , which many bee colonies are not able to. Also, the "digestion" of individual honeys is one of them. It is not uncommon for beekeepers to require their colonies to spend all their energy on early, summer, and late crops and also on late feeding, while bees are traditionally only prepared for one main crop habit (genetically). It is not surprising that the mere life thread of many bee colonies is torn by this alone.
    The incidents make it clear that the assessment of damage is more likely to be based on the stability or instability of the races than on the oft-cited ill-health of the racial mixture. With the new danger posed by the Varroa, these things will play an even bigger and clearer role, especially for biological control. One can only be glad that the high losses occurred before they could blame them all the Varroa.
    It will remain in my opinion:
    Most bee colonies die of lack of adaption.
    Explanations to 1 .: The experience shows that basically all problems in the beekeeping are solved by the selection. Through targeted and continued selection, it is possible to reach out to have highly-indigenous colonies who use the early flow without reinforcement. In addition, it has been proven that the wintered old bees enter most of the early spring flow. The logical conclusion forbids the (fundamental) consolidation of the colonies before the early harvest and the (unnecessary) stimulation of the brood business by the beekeeper.
    The next colonies ( he talks about a hiveīs check) shows an almost opposite picture. At first glance, one might think that honeycomb construction is unoccupied. It is from the top of the frames due to the honeycomb no bee to see. But I know from the feeding ago a similar strong colony as the previously is sitting. It remains bombproof in the winter cluster. Even the mild weather of recent weeks could not tempt him to loosen his cluster. Itīs inner clock is set for later awakening, when it`s breeding cycle will start again. These are the colonies I prefer. They have the most economical consumption of power and stores. Their honey domes from the previous year are still present on top of the early nest , so that the fresh honey flows fully into the new crop. His old bees forage most of the early spring honey, as they are still little worked out. It is a mistake to believe that only the early-starting colonies would produce much early-spring honey. In the latter, the long-lived winter bees are already used up before the early harvest, the winter stores completely consumed. A late winter brings such colonies in serious danger because they can no longer enforce force, pollen and stores. You have operated an unnecessary bee brood action for our northern region. Today is added that not only the Nosema but also the Varroa finds a favorable development field in them. The mites have a great developmental advantage, which allows them to grow early. This brings together several negative assumptions that favor the collapse of such colonies.
    Late breeders, on the other hand, force the Varroa to take a longer break and support the fight against the pest.
    I used to clear out weak or insignificant colonies, today I confidently leave nature to nature. These are in this case the strong neighbors. They clean the honeycombs and after that I only need to sort the honeycomb construction into old and still usable honeycombs. This is certainly no advice for big apiaries, where many colonies are housed together, but on my small outwards has never been a robbery among the stable colonies erupted. Here, the small number of 5-6 hives is an ideal solution, (* note) in which there are even no problems during the harvest. Before the colonies get really mobile, we are finished with the work.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: I want in

    SiW...
    Thanks for posting and taking the time to transulate some of it.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  21. #60
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    Default Re: I want in

    southern Louisiana
    A case for local resistance?

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_in_Louisiana

    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

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