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Thread: I want in

  1. #21
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    Default Re: I want in

    Ultimate success probably depends on the beekeeping environment. Lots of industrialized migratory operations around? The chance of success is low. The ability for bees to adapt depends on a system stable enough to adapt to. The constant bringing of bees together from around the continent, along with their hitchhikers makes for a chaotic adaptive environment. TF or traditional approaches don't have a chance to make headway.

    But you don't know until you try. Getting local bees from folks that make their own queens is a good start. From the stories I'm hearing around here, we have some resistance lurking with the local keepers, even though they are unaware of it. We also have some known feral bee hives that have been in existence for a few years. I think these two factors have allowed me to get to where I am in my operation. I also brought in queens from the best source (Saskatraz) I could find. The combination seems to be working. I have queen lines that originate from local stock and some from the Saskatraz stock. I have better 2 year survival this year so I can diversify my queen rearing efforts. I have made and lost lots of nucs. Partly out of my own ignorance as a newer beekeeper. But it allowed me to find the bees that survive.

    The next step is dominating the local bee space wherever you are. This means having as many bees as you can handle. This year I will have sites for the first time within flying distance of each other. This I hope will result in more of my queens and drones interacting with each other, and increased stability. But even so, this years bees without this benefit seem to be stronger than ever.
    Last edited by lharder; 03-24-2018 at 11:40 AM.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: I want in

    The ability for bees to adapt depends on a system stable enough to adapt to. The constant bringing of bees together from around the continent, along with their hitchhikers makes for a chaotic adaptive environment. TF or traditional approaches don't have a chance to make headway.
    Thats an argument against "natural selection" management I have made several times. but how much weight on the scales does "beekeeper section" place

    looking at those who have done it, it seems to be heavy

    When Sam comfort took his 5 hives, broke them up for resorces, started grafting, and turned them in to 160 3 frame nucs, he certainly wasn't contributing much to the DCAs, much less dominating them

    John Keffus ran small production yards (20-25 hives), with =to or larger then commercial yards in close contact, some 1 km away, and open mated at his production yards just fine, no iso or decacated mating yard.
    He then took treated bees and placed them 25 miles away and re queened with his virgins to open mate with what ever random drones were there, and got TF stock.


    Also difficult to breed from treated bees.
    No worse then then serial split stock you talk about in the qoate below
    A brood break and 3 way split knocks the mites back 80% or so... a brood on OAV knocks them back 15% or so... Witch one is propping up weak genetics?
    Pot calling the kettle black when it comes to selection and breeding...
    and yes you can, like all things with trait section the hives have to be manged equally.. You can give them all a spring Tx and then Tx(or split, brood break, etc) them as they hit threshold, last one to threshold is the winner, propagate it. Indeed there are places were this may be necessary to make any movement toward resistance
    Aggressive splitting can also be managed for honey production. They are not mutually exclusive. Likewise you can also move the ball forward on mite resistance if that is your aim
    I disagree with moveing the ball forward on resistance , you have all the problems of propping up weak stock that will colaspace when you remove "management"... call it what it is non cem treatment...
    and then you have the real downfall, mass propagation of poor stock. To shift the performance of your line(s) you need to propagate the best, re-queen the rest.

    Spitball genetics here
    Say you breed race horses. Do you provide stud service from every male that has ever run a race, every male that has ever won a race, or the male that has won the most races?
    That's easy you breed form the best and don't bother with the rest

    If you want to shift your stock, you breed form your best, the 60-80+% of the bottom end of the hives are nothing more then a spot to place a cell form the best.

    And thats key here. It dosen't matter what they are, They are nothing but surrogates you implant a cell , be they Bonded, IPMed, full on treated, commercial nuc, etc...You will be ending their genetic line and there poor drones so there history is irrelevant

    look at a bell curve 80% of the stock is average or below.
    joy-selak-chart.jpg
    So lets say you are getting 50% losses and running 100 hives
    Come spring you have lost 50 hives and need to get your numbers up. 34 of those that are left are average , if you split them you are propagating the average and you will keep getting your average, 50% losses. Ie the stock lives 18 months as is common in TF, its just enuff to overwinter, get split in the spring and die in 2nd winter, you get no were splitting it and get on a tread mill going no were.. mean while those poor drones can be draging down your good stock

    if you requeen those 34 from the top 2-3 that had low mite counts and were booming come spring you shift the performance of your stock, and more then that your putting out better drones from those hives

    In short TF survivor stock is not euff to make it breeding stock, it has to be TF thriving stock, or as close to that as you have.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: I want in

    Msl
    I hear it is hard on bees to move them. I hear northern bees winter better then northern bees (I also hear some have no problim with this). I have heard that bees moved out of thier envoroment will become properous in a new enviroment in about 3 generations. Perhaps I am just picking the one thing out of everything I have read to the contrary because it is what I want to believe (though I do think there are other cases). I keep remembering the one 20 hives of comercial bees that was set aside and a bunch of them lived even though the breeding pool was mixed with the comercial bees. I read another interesting thing today that mentioned that most of the genetic studies were kind of flawed because there were a lot of genetic alies that were not strong enought to be measured in the way most studies are conducted.

    The same thing I read today was basically saying that bees breeding to average is why the bee still has more genetic matirial to work with (not like a horse) even though bee breeders were trying to chanel them to fewer traits. This can be presented as a weakness or a strenght. I see you (and not just you) almost always present it as a weakness to explain why wider genetics make it hard. I can see this if this is the only thing that gives a bee a chance to fight mites and you leave out learning. I just keep thinking that the evidence does not make that position gold and that there are examples out there that say more then genetics is going on. If more then genetics is going on then it almost seems to me the more genetic variance even if some comes from weaker stock still gives the bees a chance to adjust using those genetics based on need. Not treating provides the need and the genetics provide the tools along with enviroment and learning.

    I noticed another bee keeper joined beescource that has not used chemical treatments for five years and still has live bees.

    About this you have to keep doing the managements or you will lose the bees thing. I think is is a bit easier and not harder to have bees kept in managed hive compared to places like seeleys forrest. People that manage bees try and judge the stores and make adjustment as needed to keep bees from starving and things like that reduce stresses that might be felt. In a round about way, stuff like that takes one stressor away allowing bees strength to fight all their other problims.

    I know some people with a thousand hives make the arguement that that is what it takes but antidotal evidence is showing that smaller guys that are not in the position to control the envoroment are having some success. Some are not but some guys with big hive numbers are having things come through thier apary and killing big numbers to even when treating. Plus the way they manage thier aparies, they have bigger losses all year but count differrent that a guy with 20 hives does. If a guy sends 500 hives to almunds and loses 200 but as soon as almonds are over builds the numbers back up so he can send them to apples, he is not counting like a back yard guy and still has 500 hives when all is said and done.

    Those guys when something out of the ordinary happens send samples to bee labs and investigate. Lots are willing to blame mite bombs. There is something going on and no doubt that mites kill bees but I am reading everything and am not sure that small numbers at many places have the ability to make it even surrounded a bit by bad stuff. It just depends on what you call moving the needle.

    If no hives are living, then you will not move the needle, but if some are surviving, then they are surviving and keeping them treatment free may keep them at least where they are but may make it better. But I do agree that having a whole bunch alive will help more then not till something bad comes through which happens to most treatment or not, at least in a lot of areas, every so often.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  5. #24
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    Default Re: I want in

    This can be presented as a weakness or a strenght. I see you (and not just you) almost always present it as a weakness to explain why wider genetics make it hard
    No I am talking about the reality of what you need to do to shift away from average, should one chose, as that's an endless subject on "what you need to do to be TF"
    Its a strength in terms of wild survival of the species and works well in terms of a colonys per square mile on a land scape scale it alows for fast adaption. Nature does this by casting a wide net of deveristy and ruthless culling back to what works
    Nature dosen't care if the bees live in your box or the tree a mile away, just that the natural balance of hives per km2 is maintained
    Thousands of years ago it was discovered that what works for wild bees doesn't work for the needs/wants of humans, the beekeeper was born, the beekeeper cares that the bees are in his boxes, and keeping bee living in there boxes is the 1st task, fail at that and your not a beekeeper

    That natural culling takes a toll... a 1/2 to 2/3s per year toll.. that' s steep... but as a beekeeper culling doesn't mean the loss of a hive, just the queen, IF you as the bee keep are proactive...
    Its not rocket science..

    You have a mean hive what do you do? Do put it to the side and wait/hope for it to die? No you save it, re queen it from a genital one!
    You have a hive that doesn't make crap for honey what do you do?. Do put it to the side and wait/hope for it to die? No you save it, re queen it from that makes honey!
    You have a hive with chalk brood what do you do?. Do put it to the side and wait/hope for it to die? No you save it re queen it from a hive you have never seen chalk in !
    You have a hive with mites OMG let it die. Whisky Tango Fox Trot! Time to grow up traits are traits...

    The Gurus/ TF Taliban can say what they want, how we select and propagate stock doesn't change just when mites are involved, the basics are the basics dogma doesn't change facts or 3k years of bee breeding

    I have heard that bees moved out of thier envoroment will become properous in a new enviroment in about 3 generations
    At F3 your in the high 90s with what your crossing with , great if your a believer that the drone stock will help you, not so good if you thing its hurting you...Either way it's right to the point of my argument
    Last edited by msl; 03-26-2018 at 12:01 AM.

  6. #25

    Default Re: I want in

    I have a new acquaintance to whom I spoke yesterday on the phone.
    He is a seasoned beekeeper who treated for years but some time ago started tf beekeeping by artificial inseminating his best survivor queens daughters from his best survivor hives drones.
    Now he already sees inbreeding results. He wants to meet me to find a strategy for IPM and bond like I will do and to exchange genetics.
    He wants virgin survivor queens from my group to artificial inseminate them with his best tf hive`s drones to have more diversity. He uses local mutt stock.
    I find his situation very interesting because it supports gww points.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: I want in

    msl
    Thousands of years ago it was discovered that what works for wild bees doesn't work for the needs/wants of humans, the beekeeper was born, the beekeeper cares that the bees are in his boxes, and keeping bee living in there boxes is the 1st task, fail at that and your not a beekeeper
    Actually most bee keepers keep bees for what they can get out of the bee. The reason it makes sense for most to keep their bees alive is cause they think they can make more then if they don't. You still hear the comments from really good bee keepers that say they don't spend time proping up dinks or they don't have sickness because they cull the bad hives. They don't worry about moving comb around hurting thier hives cause they don't want weak bees that can't handle it.

    So in the end on when we let bees die or live, it does many time come down to what the cost is to keep them alive compared to letting them go. Many don't think it is worth the time and resources to mess with laying workers and they just shake them out. I understand what you are saying and the avenues you mention to fix things that go wrong but also know in real life what real people that have to do the work do many times.

    The decision can be the same on wether to polinate apples knowing what that does to your hives compared to the money that could be made with a hive that is not put through those stresses and still decide it is worth it.

    So again it really comes down to the cost of the route taken and with the bee informed partnership numbers saying that there is really only about 8 percent differrance in loss rate for all states averaged over 5 years, then letting some bees die due to mites might be made with management techniques as well as with treating and may move the ball furthure in the right direction. Not counting the big guys, the number is about 50% of beekeepers who don't treat and so there may be a better breeding pool out there then can be seen.

    Problims could be handled by requeening or by pinching queens and combineing and who is to say what culling means in day to day management.

    If a hive was mean enough, I might be a dry ice type of guy or I might be a break up the hive requeen type guy. Hopefully I don't have to find out very soon though. As far as the rest, I think most that are not tracking some kind of data, pick what looks like thier healthyest hive to propogate from when making more hives. The ones that do bad, they combine come fall. The hive assessment may be done more on a yard wide bases then evaluating each individual hive and so the best is always going to be the best and the problim child is going to be taken care of one way or another. To me if you let the bad one die or combine it in fall, the hive that would have lived with or with out the bees from the dink is going to reduce its size down to about the same as the rest of the hives that will make it through winter and so maby you are saving something and maybe you arn't.

    In the end it comes down to can you grow your apary while not treating and still get the thing you are keeping bees to get. If you are and your hives live enough then you are probly helping the breeding pool and it may even get better.

    I do agree there is a time to handle every situation that you mentioned in the way you mentioned but that sometimes it is also right to handle it other ways.

    Also on the traits are traits. If traits are traits, then there would be no adjustment to presure. The traits would be traits if you treat or did not treat. Yet bees have come up with differrent way to fight mites in differrent places. Now this could be that the traits that were already there were the traits that moved around and come to the forefront or there could be more going on then the bees already had it and the presure only allowed those bees to live.

    I don't know which it is for sure though I do wonder if actual change is taking place. I admit it could be like some drug that was made for one thing but found to work for another. But it might be something new. If the only bees that are alive have it, who they breed to has a chance to get it and so then the question becomes does average give enough alive at the end that it is worth it and if so then average may get better cause of the aliveness.

    The question is, are small efforts still moving the ball forward.

    SiW...
    I had read one other study where they had taken some already resistant bees and artificially inseminated then and had very sparotic success. I don't remember if it was an inbreeding thing or that it just did not take well. I could not even find the study cause I can't remember which population (gottland or seeley or) They used but read it not very long ago.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps It was only hundreds of years ago and not thousands that beekeeper did the nature thing and killed most of the hives they havested from. Then they refilled those hives with swarms from the ones they did not kill. Or at least that is what wikipidia says. I think what bee keepers found out thousands of years ago is that bees would go where you put them till you wanted to take thier stuff.
    Last edited by gww; 03-26-2018 at 01:36 AM.
    zone 5b

  8. #27

    Default Re: I want in

    There are so many things to consider.

    In an expansion model there is no evaluation possible. The bees hives must be established "production" hives to see if they are resistant.

    In Germany I dont know if there is a beekeeper with established tf production hives. When I surf the websites its always a parallel strategy: most breed queens in a tf arrangement in small nucs but the moment these queens are used to produce honey with all the methods used to force this, they are not resistant anymore.

    Dinks can be dinks because the queen is not prolific. It must not be mite or virus susceptibility it can be bad mating because of weather for example. This can be changed by the bees with supercedure. Why not let them?
    After a supercedure the dinks might become strong hives.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: I want in

    SiW,,
    After a supercedure the dinks might become strong hives.
    I let my dink die on the off chance that it might make it and turn into a good hive but most beginning bee keeping courses and lots of professional bee keepers combine in the fall.
    Big hive have lots of babies and so lots of chance to make mites. Still danial d had a hive make 200 lbs and we know what squarepeg gets. Add that all most all beekeeper had some hives die. Too many dieing is too hard and you got to do what you got to do but also don't know anything till you try and even all that is subject to change when dealing with live stuff. Some times a bad strain of stuff will cycle through in places. The good thing is that the real bad stuff is so bad that it dies also and the cycle ends. Or that is what it looks like for a few big guys that I read that had lost eighty percent but only one year.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  10. #29

    Default Re: I want in

    Well, I mean dinks in spring, if those are not thriving you can combine in fall with the better queen.

    SP enterprise is exactly what I mean to show bees are resistant. He can use his tf bees like any treater does if he wants this. His losses are in a normal range with his production hives.
    That must be the goal of every tf beekeeper. And that is why his journalling thread is so valuable. Nothing to hide.

    This could happen to you and Daniel too, but to us not so lucky in our location we might change more resistant stock we selected to susceptible stock in no time if we use them for production.
    But I need to meet more german tf beekeepers to get knowledge about this.

    Those beekeepers I know always tell the same story: First year tf make a split --> zero loss in winter --> established production hive in summer--> deadout in next winter. No resistance.
    ( Im proud I have two queens overwintered twice but they were splitted)

  11. #30
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    Default Re: I want in

    SiW.....
    Those beekeepers I know always tell the same story: First year tf make a split --> zero loss in winter --> established production hive in summer--> deadout in next winter. No resistance.
    The same thing apparrently happens here. I have heard a bunch of reports of 1 to 3 to even 5 years of low loss and then bam, everything is lost. Even square peg has that trend to a lower degree in his hives where he had almost zero loss for two years and then 30 percent loss in his third year. Specialk got all the way to sixty hives and then lost all of them in one year. This is my third year and till it is over, who knows what is going to happen. Add that I change my tactics while keeping bees (mostly on getting stingy with feed) and it might even be hard to tell what killed my bees (if it happens) due to me adding varibles to the picture. If they die of course.
    I say I am more testing out the possibilities then actually doing anything but so far so good.
    I am looking at the other stuff I can find and thinking about it but then so are others and I come up with what I come up with and they can read the same stuff and maybe interpet it better and come up with a differrent view. Ones experiances along with reading, has large impact on how one reads stuff.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  12. #31
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    Default Re: I want in

    This is a post from randy oliver on a Bee L including the thing he was giving answer to in the top part.

    >
    > >Since honey bee arrived "recently" to USA from Europe, and it`s a non
    > native specie in the States (and other places around the world)...I wonder
    > if make sense talk about "locally adpated"


    Research from the '60s in California suggests that local adaptation occurs
    quickly, and that such populations maintain genetic integrity despite the
    managed hives in the area.


    --
    Randy Oliver
    Grass Valley, CA
    www.ScientificBeekeeping.com
    Does anyone find interest in this as far as the possibilities of breeding to average not being the whole story and maby need having something to do with what is retained by bees?
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  13. #32
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    Default Re: I want in

    What is OTS?
    Started in 2018 2 nucs zone 6b

  14. #33
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    Default Re: I want in

    Bill
    I am thinking that when OTS is used in this thread, it is referring to On The Spot Queen Rearing.
    http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/NCarolina-2.pdf
    Good luck
    gww
    zone 5b

  15. #34
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    Default Re: I want in

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz-kill View Post
    Also difficult to breed from treated bees.
    A stupid misconception. It's a process, you take what you have and by making daughters you can locally adapt them just as well as anything else in the area with proper selections. You can't tell me that TF stocks are any better than commercial stocks either, there is no evidence of this other than they tend to be more locally adapted it seems. I've tried a few different sources, none of them hold up to mites here in my area, so they haven't truly developed any resistance different from any other bees.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: I want in

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    This is a post from randy oliver on a Bee L including the thing he was giving answer to in the top part.


    Does anyone find interest in this as far as the possibilities of breeding to average not being the whole story and maby need having something to do with what is retained by bees?
    Cheers
    gww
    The main issue is the bell curve isn't a good example for a population that's being selected against or for something. It's probably already been shifted to right in most stocks making it narrower and much more difficult to improve upon for a lot of traits. Personally, I don't see local adaptation helping with the underlying varroa issue much at all, and I don't consider any seemingly local adaptation to varroa as evolution either since it doesn't generally hold up well to the same pressure elsewhere.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: I want in

    JRG
    The main issue is the bell curve isn't a good example for a population that's being selected against or for something. It's probably already been shifted to right in most stocks making it narrower and much more difficult to improve upon for a lot of traits. Personally, I don't see local adaptation helping with the underlying varroa issue much at all, and I don't consider any seemingly local adaptation to varroa as evolution either since it doesn't generally hold up well to the same pressure elsewhere.
    I guess it is a bird in the hand rather then in the bush type of thing. If you don't want to take your bees any where else and it is working where you are then it is still working.

    It does not matter where you are, if you have bees you have mites. If the bees are living with out treatments then they are living with out treatments. To me and your experiance of bees not living with out treatments, I relate that to the numbers by state that Bee informed publish that show some states have very high loss rate of bees even if they are treated compared to others that have low loss that are treated.

    So even treated bees can not be moved to some areas and do as well as where they are. That does not change the low rate of loss that is happening where it is happening.

    Some places may just be harder at times to raise bees then others are no matter how you treat your bees. What is an interesting number is the spred between the treated and not treated bees annual loss rate that average out less then ten percent spred even in those hard places. So every one is going to lose bees but ten percent added to 20 percent or 40 percent is still ten percent.

    Now why lose ten percent extra? Cause at least one state had the rate of treatment free being lower then the treated bees and so that is the hope factor that that ten percent might be managed down to a lower number over time.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  18. #37
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    Default Re: I want in

    It's not about treating vs not treating for me. It's the basic principle of saying evolution is at hand via natural selection, which I don't believe that's what we're seeing. Mite pressure is mite pressure where ever you are. In some areas it may be higher, but we're still talking about the same pest so if something was truly resistant, I think we'd see better results across the board. It takes me to a post Sol replied to on FB, where he pretty much discounts all the breeding programs and says TF breeds for 'survival' not mite resistance. So now I kind of get that concept, but at the same time you can't then say everyone should just stop treating, the bees will evolve, or have evolved, but yet performance of said evolution to mites doesn't hold up like it should if it was a true heritable evolved trait or combination of traits.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: I want in

    JRG
    I don't say everybody should not treat. I don't say that all problims will go away forever cause I don't think nature works that way. The human populations still get deadly and some not so deadly disieses. So it comes down to levels of disiese and playing with numbers. Some who play with those numbers say that bees that used to survive with 10 percent mite infestation are some now dieing with a 1 percent infestation on a more regular basis then they used to.

    So it is not so much that bees are immune to mites but more can the bees be managed in a way that mites don't effect the out come worse then other ways of managing them. It doesn't mean that mites are good for bees just which way are they not as bad for bees. I think there is enough evidence that some are having outcomes that wether they treat or not, it is not changing the picture of mite issues enough one way or the other to be worth doing or the best thing to be doing.

    It seems to be about levels more then immunity. There is enough proof that the levels can be adjusted by what ever the bees are using to come close to matching some treatment regiment. It seems those levels can be adjusted up by those working towards doing that.

    I do not think the aruement can be made that all bees are as strong as the strongest bee is. I think all bees might be as weak as the weakest bee depending on what stress is going on at the time or what alighning of the stars caused the straw that broke that camels back. I might go out in the cold daily but only get a cold every so often.

    I can not come to the conclution by reading everything out there that one way or the other is the wrong way and that is why this diccussion is still here. Cause and effect, short term and long term have not been proved out on any path but lots of proof of sorts shows options to pick and see if they may work.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  20. #39
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    Default Re: I want in

    Those beekeepers I know always tell the same story: First year tf make a split --> zero loss in winter --> established production hive in summer--> deadout in next winter. No resistance.
    ( Im proud I have two queens overwintered twice but they were splitted)
    bingo the serial split pattern, stock alive just long enough to be split
    BUT you have the records to tell you about those 2 queens, they have shown you they are likely different, Maby this year you change it up what your trying
    Dinks can be dinks because the queen is not prolific. It must not be mite or virus susceptibility it can be bad mating because of weather for example This can be changed by the bees with supercedure. Why not let them? After a supercedure the dinks might become strong hives.
    Why waste your time? They might also sit there and do nothing
    Break them up for nucs as Michael palmer would do, or at least give them a queen from a known high performer. Don’t leave them sitting there on the off chance they might blossom, put the resources to work.
    It was only hundreds of years ago and not thousands that beekeeper did the nature thing and killed most of the hives they havested from. Then they refilled those hives with swarms from the ones they did not kill
    3500 or so years ago the Egyptians were practicing non destructive harvest, selective queen rearing, making splits, etc. Greek topbar hives with movable combs were 2k or so years back

    Skep Beekeeping is seen in areas with a late fall flow were the 2nd swarms ( and often swarms form swarms) can make a crop, maybe not enough to over winter, but that doesn’t matter. Also you see it in areas were beeswax had high value, in medieval Europe church’s had to have beeswax candles, a skepist would make about as much off the wax as the honey.

    Skeps/gums and outher swarm type beekeeping are not a “nature” thing as you suggest, the human is culling -2/3s of the stock providing strong slective pressure above and beyond survival
    Got mean hives? Bet they get culled 1st, same with disease, dinks, and other negative traits…
    Net effect is the same as requeening -2/3s of your hives with your best stock. Strong selective pressure was used to maintain stock performance.
    It’s a mistake to look at skeps as backwards, they came in to prevalence as they were very well suited to local conditions and the beekeepers profit margin. Weak colonys were not babied in a attempt to get them to over winter, they were simply harvested, losses were taken in the fall so to speak.

    I don't see local adaptation helping with the underlying varroa issue much at all
    The work on the subject sjuests other wize
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/....03?src=recsys
    On average, colonies with queens from local origin survived 83 days longer compared to non-local origins (p < 0.001). This result demonstrates strong genotype by environment interactions. Consequently, the conservation of bee diversity and the support of local breeding activities must be prioritised in order to prevent colony losses, to optimize a sustainable productivity and to enable a continuous adaptation to environmental changes.

    Local stock tends to be better, the more locally adapted the less stress its under and the better it can resist other issues. Doesn’t help the migtory keeper much, but most here aren’t

    edit a lot was posted while I was typeing
    So now I kind of get that concept, but at the same time you can't then say everyone should just stop treating, the bees will evolve, or have evolved,
    you kinda can.... stop Txing and moving bees around an we would undoubtedly have pockets of TF stock in 5 years or less as that is what we have seen in the ferals, then like the AHB take over, we would see them spread at a rapid rate (rapid on an exclusionary scale) across the US in 50-100 years or so.. but they may not be good for human needs/wants

    Sol often uses a cheata and gazelle example as a insite to the balance of nature
    But there is alos the dark flip side, human introduced rats and cats have caused the extinction of many native spices, balance is far from a guarantee

    I get his point, survival is what matters, but if he was breeding for survival he would have some hives.... whats he down to now, 12? endless chases swarms, splits like mad claims 5-20% losses, claims to make his liveing selling bees but hasn't had any for sale sense he left AR. things don't add up
    My thought is he isn't breeding for anything and is barely selecting, caught in the serial split treadmill trap..

    Swinging back around to section
    Beekeepers have for a long time recognised these two behaviours, swarming and colony defence (Crane, 1990), and enacted breeding strategies to reduce their expression, in opposition to natural selection (Ruttner, 1972; Mbus, 1983; Villumstad, 1983; Poklukar, 1999; Moritz and Southwick, 1992). For example, the natural way for honey bee colonies to reproduce is to swarm, and this behaviour is thus intimately connected to fitness, but in contrast to this, beekeepers favour colonies that never swarm. Likewise, defensive behaviour is not favoured by beekeepers, but very docile honey bee colonies can easily fall prey to natural enemies, like wasps, birds or mammals. Hence, maintaining honey bees with optimal behaviour from a beekeeping point of view, at the same time maintains the demand for continuous artificial selection

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ean_experiment
    Last edited by msl; 03-26-2018 at 02:52 PM.

  21. #40

    Default Re: I want in

    Break them up for nucs as Michael palmer would do, or at least give them a queen from a known high performer. Don’t leave them sitting there on the off chance they might blossom, put the resources to work.
    In summer. Im too curious now how they will do. But lets discuss this in my thread not the OP`s.
    Local stock tends to be better, the more locally adapted the less stress its under and the better it can resist other issues. Doesn’t help the migtory keeper much, but most here aren’t
    Some questions:
    - how many generations do they need in the micro-evolution until there is some adaptation?
    - the moment your stock is distributed among some locations isolated from one another but exposed to other genetics will the parts adapt differently?
    - how much a part in adaptation is flow, chemicals of environment, wind, humidity, sun.....is an adaptation possible with all the yearly agricultural and climate changes?
    - how much the management of beekeepers prevent adaptation if its not pure genetics working?

    It is common belief one should use queens from the north rather than from the south.
    The amount of brood throughout the year and the amount of stores is one of the main dangers of not being adapted in my eyes, not the mite in itself which may find better survivability chances in this south adapted hives if such genetics are placed in the north where the brood cannot be renewed all the time. But then the mite is not the direct danger but the genetic adaptation to other location is and it is really the local stock that should be used.
    But after what time is it local stock?
    Last edited by 1102009; 03-26-2018 at 02:29 PM. Reason: clearance

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