OAV and Splits
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Thread: OAV and Splits

  1. #1
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    Default OAV and Splits

    I was blessed to have all 26 of my full hives make it through winter. (only lost a last minute nuc I threw together from a weak hive due to starvation). But I was going to up my mite treatment efforts this year, starting with possibly OAV treating as I make splits.

    When is the best time to OAV each portion of the split? For the "queenless" split portion, would you treat when you have capped queen cells, when you are assured you have a laying mated queen, or some other time? For the portion with the legacy queen, after she settles in and starts laying?

    Thanks.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    "Best" is relative. If I was going to treat, I would want the treatment to be as effective as possible and oav is most effective all of the mites are phoretic ( exposed ) which is when a colony is either broodless or there is no capped brood for mites to reproduce in.
    It's still a good idea to monitor your mite levels pre and post treatment.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by B52EW View Post
    I was blessed to have all 26 of my full hives make it through winter. (only lost a last minute nuc I threw together from a weak hive due to starvation). But I was going to up my mite treatment efforts this year, starting with possibly OAV treating as I make splits.

    When is the best time to OAV each portion of the split? For the "queenless" split portion, would you treat when you have capped queen cells, when you are assured you have a laying mated queen, or some other time? For the portion with the legacy queen, after she settles in and starts laying?

    Thanks.
    I am going to do vertical splits with double screen boards this weekend. I am going to move all of my capped brood to the new split (top box) along with enough open brood for them to draw a new queen. In the parent colony (bottom box) I am going to leave my queen, a small amount of uncapped brood, some stores and open comb for her to lay in. The day after the split, I am going to OAV the queen-right parent hive (bottom box) because it will not have any capped brood inside. 20 days from the day of the split I am going to OAV the new split (top box) which should now have a laying queen, but no capped brood.

    I don't see why you can't do effectively the same plan, assuming you are willing to remove all capped brood from your parent hive and you are going to let the new split raise its own queen.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    For the "queenless" split portion I would wait until the new queen is laying and treat just once before the first brood is capped.

    For the portion with the legacy queen. Start anytime, treat 4 times 5 days apart.
    Stephen 40+ hives. 6th year. Treat. Germany.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenpbird View Post
    For the "queenless" split portion I would wait until the new queen is laying and treat just once before the first brood is capped.

    For the portion with the legacy queen. Start anytime, treat 4 times 5 days apart.
    That was what I was thinking. I want to make sure I get that new queen. Thanks

  7. #6
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenpbird View Post
    For the "queenless" split portion I would wait until the new queen is laying and treat just once before the first brood is capped.

    For the portion with the legacy queen. Start anytime, treat 4 times 5 days apart.
    +1
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  8. #7
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I am going to do vertical splits with double screen boards this weekend. I am going to move all of my capped brood to the new split (top box) along with enough open brood for them to draw a new queen. In the parent colony (bottom box) I am going to leave my queen, a small amount of uncapped brood, some stores and open comb for her to lay in. The day after the split, I am going to OAV the queen-right parent hive (bottom box) because it will not have any capped brood inside. 20 days from the day of the split I am going to OAV the new split (top box) which should now have a laying queen, but no capped brood.

    I don't see why you can't do effectively the same plan, assuming you are willing to remove all capped brood from your parent hive and you are going to let the new split raise its own queen.
    If the top box has got to make a queen from young larva, day old or less, you probably will not have a laying queen in 20 days. If they start building a queen cell with with a newly hatched larva the queen won't emerge for 12 days and she usually doesn't mate till she is about 6 to 8 days which is day 20. you won't have capped brood in there, but about day 28 for laying queen.
    .

  9. #8
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    The box that has to make a queen will be broodless by day 24. Anywhere from day 13 to 16 depending on how old the egg was when they made the queen cell it will hatch. Usually 4 or 5 days later the queen will leave on her mating flight. It will be day 26 or 27 when she starts to lay, they should begin to be capped by day 36 or so. So technically treating anywhere from day 24 to 36 should work. I time mine for exactly 28 days, or exactly four weeks. Makes it easier for me to remember that way.

    Now if you want to really get mite free splits, think about an artificial swarm for the original hive. Put a frame of pollen into a nuc. Add a couple or three frames of drawn comb. Finish with a frame of foundation. Shake in three frames of bees and put in the original queen. Put this nuc where the original hive sat so the foragers will return. Feed it as heavily as they will take. No brood, so come back in a week and oav it. No more mites.(for a couple of weeks anyway lol). Move the old hive to a new location. 10 days later inspect for queen cells. Depending on how strong it is you may make three or more splits from it. It's increase baby!

  10. #9
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    For the "queenless" split portion I would wait until the new queen is laying and treat just once before the first brood is capped.

    For the portion with the legacy queen. Start anytime, treat 4 times 5 days apart.
    better yet don't leave any capped brood with the old queen and you can TX right away and get it done with a single TX
    the other split matters how you queen it... If you put in a laying queen you won't have much of a break to hit the mites, if you do cells you hit it with OA at day 19-20 while it is brood less .

    edit I do mine simular to HB, but I just move one frame of open brood and don't shake any bees, the feild force is enuf and they "grab a gear" as Lauri says and become comb drawing machines
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  11. #10
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by HillBilly2 View Post
    The box that has to make a queen will be broodless by day 24. Anywhere from day 13 to 16 depending on how old the egg was when they made the queen cell it will hatch. Usually 4 or 5 days later the queen will leave on her mating flight. It will be day 26 or 27 when she starts to lay, they should begin to be capped by day 36 or so. So technically treating anywhere from day 24 to 36 should work. I time mine for exactly 28 days, or exactly four weeks. Makes it easier for me to remember that way.

    Now if you want to really get mite free splits, think about an artificial swarm for the original hive. Put a frame of pollen into a nuc. Add a couple or three frames of drawn comb. Finish with a frame of foundation. Shake in three frames of bees and put in the original queen. Put this nuc where the original hive sat so the foragers will return. Feed it as heavily as they will take. No brood, so come back in a week and oav it. No more mites.(for a couple of weeks anyway lol). Move the old hive to a new location. 10 days later inspect for queen cells. Depending on how strong it is you may make three or more splits from it. It's increase baby!
    I like the plan HB, but tell me how it differs from the vertical split. I am taking the Queen, removing the brood, and leaving pollen and empty comb in the bottom box. Not only will the foragers come back to the bottom box, but with the double screen board I can divert workers on day 5 and day 10 from the top box to the bottom box for production. I think we are doing the exact same thing and think we should get the same results. Tell me what I am missing.

    Also, waiting until day 24 like you suggest is probably the better plan. It will make sure any drone cells have hatched as well. Also, there is no hurry because I will have a pretty good brood break.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I like the plan HB, but tell me how it differs from the vertical split. I am taking the Queen, removing the brood, and leaving pollen and empty comb in the bottom box. Not only will the foragers come back to the bottom box, but with the double screen board I can divert workers on day 5 and day 10 from the top box to the bottom box for production. I think we are doing the exact same thing and think we should get the same results. Tell me what I am missing.

    Also, waiting until day 24 like you suggest is probably the better plan. It will make sure any drone cells have hatched as well. Also, there is no hurry because I will have a pretty good brood break.
    It doesn't really, I guess. I like to do it in separate boxes, probably because I don't want to spend 20 some dollars on a snelgrove board. The concept is clearly the same, get them broodless, hit them with oav, and have clean splits to build up.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    I personally wouldn't overthink this. As soon as your daytime temps are in the fifties so the bees aren't tightly clustered, hit them with OAV treatments every fifth or sixth day times three and your mite levels will be next to zero. Treating the broodless splits should do the same. Elegance is not rewarded. OA doesn't hurt the bees so just do it.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by HillBilly2 View Post
    It doesn't really, I guess. I like to do it in separate boxes, probably because I don't want to spend 20 some dollars on a snelgrove board. The concept is clearly the same, get them broodless, hit them with oav, and have clean splits to build up.
    Thanks for responding. I am interested in the answer, because the literature around this suggests that there IS a difference. Snelgrove basically came up with what I am doing, but he does not call it an "artificial swarm." Snelgrove himself makes this distinction later in his book when he discusses how to handle a pre-swarm hive that already has made queen cells. He calls this later method an "artificial swarm" but not the method I am usiing. The Pagden Method, which is basically what you describe, is considered an "artificial swarm" as well. So I have always wondered if I was missing some distinction in Snelgrove's primary method vs. the Pagden method. I bet enjambres knows the answer.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    I personally wouldn't overthink this. As soon as your daytime temps are in the fifties so the bees aren't tightly clustered, hit them with OAV treatments every fifth or sixth day times three and your mite levels will be next to zero. Treating the broodless splits should do the same. Elegance is not rewarded. OA doesn't hurt the bees so just do it.
    I don't get near the success with an OAV series as I get with a broodless OAV single shot. If you look at Randy Oliver's mite model, it bears that out too. But that is just a model. I was at a conference where Jennifer Berry spoke last Fall and she said she did not think the OAV series was very effective. I don't know. I know that I do it a lot because i am rarely broodless. My experience is that the series knocks them back and will get you to cooler temps so you can use Thymol or Formic to take them to zero.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    I personally wouldn't overthink this. As soon as your daytime temps are in the fifties so the bees aren't tightly clustered, hit them with OAV treatments every fifth or sixth day times three and your mite levels will be next to zero. Treating the broodless splits should do the same. Elegance is not rewarded. OA doesn't hurt the bees so just do it.
    Yep! I found in doing a quite a few sorts of frames for splits (snelgrove, usually) that the best laid plans get altered when you find that most frames are not that crisply sorted as to what is on them. I find it easier to do a few extra OA vaporizations than to try to time precisely when they will be broodless especially just before swarm time of the year.
    Frank

  17. #16
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    If I had mites in one of the splits, I dont think I would like to wait till all the capped brood emerged, just to catch them all at their most susceptible time. With drifting and drones moving about, etc. it complicates things; not like late fall when you can be more certain that every colony is broodless.
    Frank

  18. #17
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    Default Re: OAV and Splits

    The only brood breaks I get are the ones I create or the ones the bees create themselves (by swarming or supercedure). There might be a couple of weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas, but good luck guessing at it. I bet OAV is extremely effective in Canada with the lengthy broodless period. Don't know that I would use anything else.

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