Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Eduardo started this thread.
    I assume that it is important to him that in the Portuguese orchards the bees are not poisoned directly by spraying, so the argument that the defense is built into the plant is certainly an advantage.
    My fundamental fear is that organic fundamentalism will lay the baby down the pipe along with the water.
    The portuguese and european situation regarding GMOs is largely conditioned by the french and german positions.

    Since the introduction of GMOs in the food chain in the mid-1990s, there has been a marked annual increase in the cultivation of transgenic plants worldwide. In 2010, the total area under cultivation of transgenic plants reached 148 Mha, of which 50% correspond to soybean and 31% to maize, GM crops being the most widely used in the world, followed by cotton and oilseed rape. At EU level, maize is the most authoritative (often designated as events) genetically modified species (21) in food and feed (see www.gmo-compass.org/). Portugal is ranked 21st worldwide in the cultivation of GMOs, corresponding only to MON810 maize, which is currently the only event approved for cultivation in the EU. Since 2005, its cultivation in Portugal has been extended to the North, Center (Beira Litoral), Lisbon and Tagus Valley, Alentejo (most cultivated area) and, more recently, to the Algarve.

    I thank SG for what he has taught me about this subject.

    ""Science isn't rejecting the claims themselves so much as the evidence used to support them. Scientific evidence, by our definition, must be strong enough to win a consensus. That is an exacting standard. The scientist, like a stage magician, can't cover his hands at a critical part of the demonstration. The audience would boo and throw tomatoes.

    Science doesn't care how a scientist comes up with an idea: it does care, however, about the evidence the scientist uses to support the idea. It must be convincing to those who don't believe in Ouija boards, not just to those who do.

    Well-written pseudoscience, with its exciting generalizations and lack of mathematics, can always find a bigger audience than can carefully crafted, but necessarily tedious, rebuttals.

    Cromer, A. (1995). Uncommon sense: The heretical nature of science. Oxford University Press.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    My fundamental fear is that organic fundamentalism will lay the baby down the pipe along with the water.
    Its already a huge issue. One example I've encountered personally is wilt-resistant bananas. In many regions of Africa, bananas are a major staple; equivalent to rice in Asia, or potatoes in Ireland. For many families, the 1 or 2 banana trees on their property is all that stands between them and starvation. And bananas in Africa are under attack, by a fungal wilt disease. In Uganda (where my uni maintains a research outpost that I've worked with a few times) they have had actual famines caused by the loss of bananas to this disease.

    And there is a solution - a GMO'd banana made by an NPO, which they want to offer farmers for free. They have test plots full of trees, ready to be shared (to share all you do is give a farmer a cutting; within a year it'll be producing fruit). But despite the issues with famine, despite the spread of the disease, they cannot share their trees - simply because well funded European interest groups have lobbied the government to ban the trees. You can literally drive around the agricultural areas outside of Kampala and see plots of banana trees behind razor wire, separating them from people who desperately need them.

    So a free solution to a disease threatening the major food source for tens of millions of people is being withheld, because to some wealthy Europeans, dead children is apparently a better option than a patent-free, freely provided, disease-resistant GMO.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SuiGeneris View Post
    So a free solution to a disease threatening the major food source for tens of millions of people is being withheld, because to some wealthy Europeans, dead children is apparently a better option than a patent-free, freely provided, disease-resistant GMO.
    More on the bananas in Uganda issue here:
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-12-...gandas-farmers
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #44

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    So the lack of diversity with banana multiplication is now treated with GMO...I hope this works. I hope it for the small farmers.

    And how do you want to solve the starvation of people who have no access to farmland and water, because this was bought by speculators?

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    So the lack of diversity with banana multiplication is now treated with GMO...I hope this works. I hope it for the small farmers.
    Its not an issue of genetic diversity; you're thinking of the Cavendish (most common type shipped to Europe/N. America as a fruit) which is under attack by a different disease (tropical race). This is an issue for some African farmers, as some produce this as an export crop. But that's not the type of banana we're talking about here. Cavendish production in Africa is largely run by large companies, so the loss of those bananas is more of an economic/jobs issue than a survival issue.

    The banan's Graham & I are referring to are generally quite different; some are small dessert bananas, but most are starchy plantains. Very starchy, usually cooked prior to consumption. Much more genetically diverse than the fruit/dessert strains grown for richer nations. And a lot of effort was put into breeding a resistant strain, with no success. The genes which provide protection come from sweet peppers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    And how do you want to solve the starvation of people who have no access to farmland and water, because this was bought by speculators?
    Not an issue in Uganda, where most people are farmers, and not at all relevant to GMOs or other farming methods.

  7. #46

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Ah, thanks, SG.
    I hope the famers will not have to wait until they are so desperate they will be taken over then and will keep their property.

  8. #47

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SuiGeneris View Post

    So a free solution to a disease threatening the major food source for tens of millions of people is being withheld, because to some wealthy Europeans, dead children is apparently a better option than a patent-free, freely provided, disease-resistant GMO.
    In this article they say that it is not withheld.
    So why such populistic articulation?

    https://www.heise.de/tr/blog/artikel...k-3880859.html

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    In this article they say that it is not withheld.
    So why such populistic articulation?

    https://www.heise.de/tr/blog/artikel...k-3880859.html
    The bill is still not law, the anti-GMO lobby continues to use scare tactics to prevent its passage: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._136860111.htm

    And even when (or if) it becomes law, this still means that from 2008 (when the banana was first to be released) to 2018 it was withheld - that's 10 years of starvation (and thousands of dead) that could have been avoided.

  10. #49

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    How can you guarantee itīs staying with NPO organizations and it will not happen like in India?

    By the way, was Vandana studying at your university?

    http://vandanashiva.com/?page_id=2

    In 1995, Indian Agriculture was reoriented from being focused on National Food Security, which rests on the livelihood and ecological security of our small farmers, to being focussed on corporate control and corporate profits, which are made possible by the corporate written rules of “free” trade, trade liberalization, and globalization. Enabled by these rules, agrichemical giants entered India and started to control the seed sector. Where once farmers grew, saved, and replanted seeds, they were now forced to buy seed-chemical packages that allowed companies to extract super-profits from farmers through royalty collection.
    In 2009 alone, 30 new brands of Bt Cotton were introduced in India in order to create an illusion of choice for farmers. In reality, the introduction of Bt cotton meant that farmers could no longer afford seeds and were forced to buy them on credit from companies, creating a cycle of debt that continues till today. *
    In spring 2015, during the harvest festival of Baisakhi, more than 100 farmers of West UP committed suicide. Their crops had failed due to unseasonal rains. This climate instability is part of climate change, and industrial agriculture is a major driver of climate change. Farmers’ suicides are a result of high cost-low return farming, the stresses due to the debt resulting from this exploitative system, their vulnerability to volatile markets, and a chaotic climate.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    How can you guarantee itīs staying with NPO organizations and it will not happen like in India?
    When it comes to subsistence farmers, no company is going to develop products for them - there is no market there for them to sell too. By definition, these farmers lack the means to buy into more advanced agricultural seeds and technologies.

    Subsistence farmers are a major target for NGO's who support human development. The goal is to give these farmers the resources to go from farming to simply stay alive, to being able to profit and advance economically.

    In terms of your posts regarding India, the situation is much more complex than the simplified version your source describes. Most cotton seeds sold in the west (GMO or conventional) are hybrid seeds - meaning that they are the offspring of two separate cotton breeds. When you cross two breeds in this fashion, the plants that grow from the resulting seeds experience a phenomenon called "hybrid vigour". This essentially means that the "children" of the cross out-grow and out-rpoduce the parental strains. This is great for farmers as they get much higher yields (most vegetables and cereals you buy - organic or conventional - are from hybrid stocks), but they come with a limitation - they don't breed true, and if you cross the hybrids and collect the seeds, the next generation will under-perform.

    Bt cotton was the first hybrid crop ever introduced into India, and Indian farmers either ignored, or didn't take seriously, or didn't understand, the instructions they received on using the new seeds. This led to a pretty large loss in cotton output for a few years, as many farmers replanted seeds from the first years crop. It caused a lot of issues for the farmers, but it also spurred the development of the first non-patented and non-hybrid Bt cotton. This is now the most commonly grown form of cotton in India, is is considered to be directly responsible for increasing farmer incomes and reducing environmental impact within India's cotton industry: http://www.isaaa.org/resources/publi...ef-41-2009.pdf

  12. #51

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SuiGeneris View Post
    When it comes to subsistence farmers, no company is going to develop products for them - there is no market there for them to sell too. By definition, these farmers lack the means to buy into more advanced agricultural seeds and technologies. [/url]
    At the start they are sponsored.
    After studying your link I post this:
    To what extent is the selection of projects and the programmatic orientation of ISAAA linked to the list of sponsors? Even if the ISAAA does not publish financial details, after all so much is published: A number of global agricultural and genetic engineering companies financially support the ISAAA, including Monsanto (including its Indian branch Mahyco) and Bayer CropScience. Associations of the agricultural industry can be found among the sponsors, such as CropLife Asia and CropLife international.3 In the past, the German seed company KWS Saat AG and the German Federal Ministry for Economic Cooperation in the list of supporters. Added to this are the ministries of agriculture and foreign affairs of the US government and its development organization USAID and others. In earlier years, the Rockefeller Foundation was a recurring promoter.

    The chair of the ISAAA Board of Directors is now Paul S. Teng, a scientist from Singapore. Teng worked as vice president for the Asia Pacific region for Monsanto. His name is also on the list of the Steering Committee of the Public Research and Regulation Initiative (PRRI), another lobbying organization that is committed to the regulation of agro-genetic engineering, especially in international negotiations, and is usually close to industry represents.

    The ISAAA Board of Directors also includes high-ranking - sometimes former - representatives of GM and agricultural corporations, for example Robert Fraley of Monsanto or - currently - former Novartis and Syngenta research manager Wallace Beversdorf.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    At the start they are sponsored.
    I have never once heard of that happening. Citation required.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    After studying your link I post this:
    And? Is it really a surprise that an NPO whose mission statement and entire purpose for existence is to bring free, modern farming methods to substance and poor farmers would hire ***experts*** in those methods? If your goal is to bring modern seeds (GMO'd or otherwise) to the poor, why would you hire anyone other than someone who has past experiences creating and distributing those types of products?

    How is that at all bad, insidious, or wrong?

    And more to the point, whom do you think they should be hiring instead? Anti-GMO activists? Soccer moms? Internet conspiracy mongers?

    Who is pure enough in your eyes to head and work for a farming NGO?

    Long story short, you've once again fallen into your habit of denigrating and attacking people because their findings disagree with your beliefs. If the ISAAA's results are wrong, show us the data. If the best thing you can do is try to insinuate that a logical hiring practice is somehow insidious, you have no valid argument to make.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    SG why do you bother? lol

    I just follow this thread to watch her attack then back off, attack then back off, attack...
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

  15. #54

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    SG,
    donīt feel offended. Iīm not questioning your personal good intentions. I visited your profile and saw you are interested in beekeeping so you are not an influencer in my eyes just as Iīm not one.

    Who is pure enough in your eyes to head and work for a farming NGO?
    Perhaps those should work in a voluntary capacity.

    Iīm not against GMO per se, I just donīt want this to be in the hands of a few unscrupulous people.

    rwurster,
    I got your last post on my email account before you edited it. Are you contributing? SG seems to me a person who can look out for himself. As he is a teacher he must be used to skepticism.

    Well, Iīm very glad I got the links so I can discuss this with both sides in europe. Thanks again, SG.
    Last edited by 1102009; 02-28-2018 at 10:02 AM.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    SG,
    donīt feel offended.
    I don't feel offended. I'm simply pointing out that any time you are faced with facts that are inconvenient to your beliefs, you explain away those facts by claiming the sources are biased or untrustworthy.

    According to you:
    • Mark Lynas "was paid for this" ("this" being accepting the evidence and going from an anti-GMO advocate to a pro-GMO advocate) --> post #2
    • Any scientist who publishes data you don't like cannot possible be independent or unbiased --> post #24
    • And now, an NGO which provided modern agricultural tools to subsistence farmers must be lying in their reports because they've hired competent people with relevant experience to their mission.


    At no point have you ever provided any evidence any of your claims are true. You simply dismiss those who have the data showing your beliefs to be unfounded as biased or otherwise untrustworthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Perhaps those should work in a voluntary capacity.
    So people who disagree with you are not allowed to make a living? And I fail to see how it is at all relevant - many of your anti-GMO advocates are paid for their "work", and most anti-GMO NGO's have paid staff and executives. So I assume you'll stop quoting those sources as well, given that being paid for your expertise is somehow disingenuous in your book...

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Iīm not against GMO per se, I just donīt want this to be in the hands of a few unscrupulous people.
    So then you should be ecstatic that the ISAAA exists and hires the best people in their field, instead of complaining that they exist and hire the best people in their field. ISAAA gives away, for free, all of their GMOs and conventionally grown crops. They give away, for free, training in modern farming methods. They buy, or convince companies to sign over, patent rights to seeds, stocks and GMOs, and then give them away for free. They advice governments on safe and effective GMO policies, for free. They perform environmental and social impact studies, and give the results away for free.

    The very thing you say you want is the entire reason for their existence.

    And yet, somehow, in your mind they are evil, or to be mistrusted because they've hired people with relevant experience.

    Here's a challenge for you. Name one of your anti-GMO groups that's done half as much for subsistence farmers, and ensuring seed/stock availability free of intellectual property restraints, than the ISAAA.

  17. #56

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    IMHO are the problems of hunger and non-supply caused by civil wars, drought or flooding, natural disasters, climate change and dictatorship.

    So it does not matter how and if agriculture is funded, it does not even matter if there is a genetically engineered agriculture or not. There are no solutions as long as there is a global market.
    Genetic engineering can also lead to an oversupply, a drop in prices, so that nobody is helped.

    In my opinion, there will only be an improvement if the global market economy is abandoned and there are more tariffs and own currencies. Then the countries can act freely.

    The map you have set reminds me of a World Conquest card. It scares me.
    The infrastructure is the same as in a war. We Germans are very influenced by our past.

    I've set the link from India, that's enough.
    I do not feel like justifying myself for something that matches my democratic freedom, and I am very grateful to have (still) this choice.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/180228 GMO's exist primarily so that Neonicotinoids can be used. Hopefully the lights come on for all the science-deniers/'independent researchers' out there before all bee populations are destroyed worldwide. 32% population decline: https://beeinformed.org/2017/05/25/2...-participants/

  19. #58

    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    GMO's exist primarily so that Neonicotinoids can be used.
    Proof positive that common sense has disappeared.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    A very impressive reading: "What if much that you think you know about agriculture, farming and food isn't actually true? What if there are "myths" that have been intentionally and mostly unintentionally spread about these issues? What if the truth about these issues matters for the future of humanity?" source: http://appliedmythology.blogspot.pt/2018/

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Time to call out the anti-GMO conspiracy theory

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Proof positive that common sense has disappeared.
    Yes, that statement caught my attention too. Two different issues, two different technologies and I am left wondering how many people really understand that. I remember pointing that out to someone once and the response I got was "ya, well I'm just against all that stuff". Hmmmm. Ok.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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