Ukraine crossed frames
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  1. #1
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    Default Ukraine crossed frames

    I was watching some videos made by Dr. Victor Fursov from Ukraine where he was touting the advantages of new frame design. In the videos, the brood nest and supers had frames that were 90 degrees to each other and had no space between the top of one frame and the bottom of the frame immediately above it. The claim was that because the two frames contacted each other at a 90 degree angle, the bees would build comb from one section to the other and be able to move directly from one colony section to another. Am curious if anyone has tried using that approach and with what results, or if anyone has any other information on Dr. Fursov.

    Here is a YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g0liuI8fEs

    Lobo

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Sounds like what mine do in regular boxes. Don't see any benefit. But I haven't been at this long enough to know much.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by lobottomee View Post
    . Am curious if anyone has tried using that approach and with what results, or if anyone has any other information on Dr. Fursov.

    Here is a YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g0liuI8fEs

    Lobo
    I watched some of their materials.
    Don't know of the benefit either way.
    I like their frames.

    I do know that bees have no problem with frames crossed at 90 degrees and so if there is a need to do it - then do it.
    There are many examples of this working fine, here is one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gExG-W07Efw&t=7s

    Thinking here to build a test hive that will use this crossed design too, just like in this video.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Sorry but I didn't find the 26 minutes really worth the time to watch the video. Personal opinion is the only positive point to the cross frames sitting on each other was the bees could move down during winter without crossing the vertical space between frames of standard lang configurations. However, my normal winter configuration has the bees in the lower box. Also, didn't find the claims of limiting swarms, impacting varroa, better health, efficiently of and increased harvest with any validity or merit.

    Anytime I've had frames get too close vertically it was a pain to separate the boxes once the bees glued the frames together with wax and propolis. Lift the upper box and the lower box frames try to come with it; twisting to separate isn't exactly a picnic either. A second consideration is the cross frame configuration in modified langs or in the gentleman's hive would give a lot of nonstandard equipment logistically in the apiary or extracting.
    “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    If you've ever had a box full of frames that were attached by comb or propolis to the frames in the box below it, you're going to not have fun. I didnt sit through 26 minutes of that guy, I skipped through it. Having frames 90 degrees to each other in differing boxes, to each their own. Bees probably wouldnt care. As far as that guy's wallpaper, wow
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    I would not watch the 26 mins; I did not.

    I did watch their videos in Ukranian language; more interesting.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Just theorizing here from what I saw in the video posted by GregV, is that perhaps crossing the first box over the bottom brood box helps to keep the queen below the supers as she prefers continueous comb to lay in?

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    Just theorizing here from what I saw in the video posted by GregV, is that perhaps crossing the first box over the bottom brood box helps to keep the queen below the supers as she prefers continueous comb to lay in?
    Donno.
    I would say this - their hives are based on vertical and large Ukrainian frame and that's the real deal (large, vertical and contiguous space for the queen to work).
    The Ukranian frame is what I am basing my own equipment on (the horizontal setup, not the vertical as they do).
    Large contiguous combs in the nest, pretty much keep the queen there.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    I dont speak russian or ukrain. So i couldent bear it out.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Like the Ukrainians, I, too, am a fan of big frames with a large uninterrupted surface area for the queen to lay in. The fewer road blocks, such as air gaps and wood ridges to her movement in the brood chamber, the less time she spends wandering around unproductively looking for more space to lay in. I've got a handful of new Dadant Deeps, and it is too soon for me to tell whether these large frames do increase the queen's productivity, but they sure do make inspections easier!




    That being said, the 90 degree/touching frame arrangement sounds to me like a solution looking for a problem. And, I bet it has been done many times in the 170-odd years that the basic Langstroth design has been in existence, and has been forgotten each time because there were no benefits.

    JMHO




    .
    Last edited by shinbone; 03-05-2018 at 09:32 AM.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Well, I already posted and re-posted videos of people using cross-framing in commercial, migratory setups.
    Works well for them and not looking for video link again.

    The brood-nest is on conventional Ukranian frame and left to the bees (about 12-13 frames).
    The supers are on conventional mediums for the convenient honey extraction are setup at 90 degrees to the brood-nest.
    Here is the picture: UkrainianBroodnestStandardSupers.jpg

    Basically, if you are working by a box, small frames/8 frame boxes make lots of sense...
    All medium frames in small boxes, with such setup, make lots of sense for human ergonomics (not for the bees though but they still do OK I guess).

    If you are working by a frame already, it makes sense to just give the bees what they want (large frames - Dadant/Ukranian/Layens).

    In this sense, Langstroth deep frame is neither there or her.
    Too small to work by a single frame; too large to work by entire box.
    Just no ideal in any way.
    Last edited by GregV; 03-05-2018 at 09:06 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    I have not watched the video all of the way through, but the narrow length and long depth frame was somewhat popular in the U. S. after the start of the moveable frame hive began. I don't know of a frame manufactured in the U. S. that was greater in depth than 12 inches. The majority of the honey production for the market was comb honey in sections, and the producers favored a small brood nest when making comb honey.

    Using a super that has the frames running 90 degrees to the ones in the broodnest was not uncommon when using a square box for brood and honey production. I saw no major benefit, but I always used an excluder above the brood.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Here is the video (looked up anyway):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gExG-W07Efw

    Reason for so much cross-comb between the brood-nest and the honey super is that the guy did not have time to build the proper deep Ukrainian frames and used standard Dadants for the time.
    That created too much space between the boxes and then cross-comb.

    This is what I want to try since I have to be mobile (don't have large property and so have to be able to hop around).
    Last edited by GregV; 03-05-2018 at 09:46 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    My continuously sore back muscles and a fussy shoulder keep reminding of this thread (redoing my river-rock landscaping around the house; not beekeeping).
    I think I will revisit the idea of the Dr. Fursov hive - from the ergonomic point.

    10 full-Ukrainian frame square deep brood chamber + half-Ukrainian frame square supers.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    In the UK, the British National Beehive is square, and I often place one box on the other at 90 degrees - although the frames themselves never get to touch. Makes no difference - the bees don't care.

    Can't see a single advantage in frames touching - imo, that's just asking for trouble. If it's considered important to have deep contiguous combs, then use appropriately dimensioned frames in the first place. Problem is then solved at source.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    In the UK, the British National Beehive is square, and I often place one box on the other at 90 degrees - although the frames themselves never get to touch. Makes no difference - the bees don't care.

    Can't see a single advantage in frames touching - imo, that's just asking for trouble. If it's considered important to have deep contiguous combs, then use appropriately dimensioned frames in the first place. Problem is then solved at source.
    LJ
    I don't necessarily care of the frames touching/not-touching.
    I also don't care to lose my sleep over 2-3 mm tolerances either.
    If the frames touch then be it and maybe I want it, in fact.

    The point of the narrow bars (10 mm (1/2") metal pipes in their case) is that at 90 degree position orientation, their touching surfaces are so negligible that it does not prevent any work.
    The small comb fusions are breaking off easily when need to raise the hive body.
    So, you get comb continuation AND manageability in one.
    Good for the bees and good for the people both.
    This is a all.

    PS: now, fusion of the parallel frames along the bars - now talking real problems;
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    ...
    Can't see a single advantage in frames touching - imo, that's just asking for trouble.
    ...
    LJ
    Touching frames could take care of too many bees in the hive. Isn't the area of the touching woodwork about half of the footprint?

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by baybee View Post
    Touching frames could take care of too many bees in the hive. Isn't the area of the touching woodwork about half of the footprint?
    Again, in the case of "Ukraine crossed frames" we are talking of grid of intersections of toching 1/2" bars.
    Now - this is way, way less than a "half of the footprint".
    See?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    The point of the narrow bars (10 mm (1/2") metal pipes in their case) is that at 90 degree position orientation, their touching surfaces are so negligible that it does not prevent any work.
    The small comb fusions are breaking off easily when need to raise the hive body.
    I have watched this guy's videos and fully understand the principles ...

    Still not buying into this - there's no problem that I'm aware of which needs fixing by such an idea.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Ukraine crossed frames

    Quote Originally Posted by baybee View Post
    Touching frames could take care of too many bees in the hive.
    Not sure what you mean by "take care" - are you perhaps suggesting that touching frames could prevent swarming or something along those lines ? If so, I don't see how they're related ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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