Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    If time before you go, chuck a brood frame with eggs, into the LW hive. Won't hurt, and who knows there may be a lucky fluke & you come back to a queen in it.

    Enjoy Cambodia, awesome place but tragic history, beautiful people. Just don't go into red light district.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    If time before you go, chuck a brood frame with eggs, into the LW hive. Won't hurt, and who knows there may be a lucky fluke & you come back to a queen in it.

    Enjoy Cambodia, awesome place but tragic history, beautiful people. Just don't go into red light district.
    Thanks!

    This is trip no 24 to Cambodia.

    I volunteer for a local organisation. Most of the time is spent near Sisophone. I don't think they have a Red Light district!
    from the Bee House -http://ecologicalsolutions.com.au/bees/?page_id=8
    40 years - +/- 20 H - TF - Subtropical

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Oh, you are an old pro. Lucky guy.

    After the Pol Pot thing, NZ took some Cambodian refugees. I was single at the time and had a houseload of people to help pay the mortgage. One of them was a Cambodian and the house became a gathering place for a bunch of Cambodians. Some of the stories they told me were spine chilling, they had all seen atrocities and killings.

    Then one day there was a very intense discussion, somebody had recognised someone now living in NZ, who had been a Kmer Rouge soldier. They didn't think going to the police would achieve anything, so the discussion was about wether they should kill him. In the end, they did nothing. Interesting times!
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    I could write a lot about my observations and experience using virgin queens. *If you take the time to understand how to use them and handle them properly, they can accomplish many things a mated queen can't.

    I will add to the previous replies that if using a virgin or cell to rectify a LW hive, watch out for a few things.
    *A LW colony will take care of a virgin well enough to get her mated and start laying, but you can run into a couple snags at that point.

    If the colony had been queenless long enough to have multiple eggs in cells, you are pretty far gone with only old bees *and drones remaining. *Even if the newly mated queen is of excellent quality and well mated, as soon as she starts laying and there is viable larva, the colony may continue to try to rear their own queen cell. *Not sure if they *blame the new queen for the imbalance or they are so entrenched in their quest to rear a queen, they don't fully *recognize they already have one.

    What happens is , your newly mated queen start laying well and you think you are back in business. But if you are not careful you'll overlook a growing queen cell who's virgin will emerge, seek out your laying queen and kill her just as she gets going well.*
    An added *frame of brood and adhering young bees will help with this issue, but you still have to be on the look out for it. It is not as bad if you catch your LW colony right as they go over the edge instead of in full out LW mode.

    I hate to risk a good frame of brood on a questionable colony, so If they are not too far gone I only install the queen cell. Once she is mated and is back for good, I will give that frame of brood to boost them if I think it is necessary.

    If they are farther along in age, I give them a frame of brood along with the cell to help offset the imbalance of ages. I rarely do this though and would rather shake out those bees than risk wasting resources on them, fall into the 'kicking the dead horse' mode.

    I never try to turn a LW nuc into anything productive. It is not worth the effort and babying for a colony that will never amount to much.Trust me, I 've tried.
    But they will be good enough to use as a mating nuc for the rest of the season if you can get some young bees in there in a reasonable amount of time.
    It seems the stress of the LW colony, even when well rectified has residual effects. Almost like it is tarnished somehow. You know how a stressed colony can be susceptible to pests and diseases. It is possible this is part of the reason, even if it is subtle and not easily noticeable.

    I never shake out LW bees, don't worry about removing drones if I try to requeen with a cell or virgin. Once the new queen is established & laying well, it isn't long before workers change their attitude and kick out the drones and undesirables of their own accord.

    I do remove frames of drone brood though. Chickens can peck out these cells without destroying the rest of the comb and without the milky white mess you get when trying to scrape off drone brood.

    DSC08824.jpg

    P6040532.jpg

    In a few weeks, there will only be a small colony of young bees, worker brood & eggs left.
    Small population but somewhat normal return to sanity.

    Problem is, now they have no older bees to 'mentor' them. One of the reason's a rectified LW colony never seems to amount to much.

    Imbalance of ages swings from the geriatric death bed crowd to to a box of kindergartners who know virtually nothing other than instinctive impulses. Sure they can take care of the queen and brood, but *without the older bees guidance, they seem to have no direction past that stage. That's where that frame of brood you may have added early in the game kicks in again for the second time. You still have some bees that will live long enough have had a chance to forage and pass on information to younger bees. That information 'gap' is covered, at least a little bit. That dependence on learned behavior that I think is largely overlooked.
    The same could be said for packaged bees and the issues common with their use.

    If used as a mating nuc all season, I *harvest the last queen late summer and combine with other normal nucs to overwinter.*

    I did *an experiment last season with a few mating nucs that had a mite load. *Wanted to see how many virgin rounds it took to clean them up without treatment . It was pretty impressive how much the mites had an impact on poor *returns and absconding compared to nucs with no mite issues
    *So if you have a lw hive due to a failed return, you may want to address the possible mite issues along with your queenless issues, they could be connected. *That colony will never recover if you don't address all issues at hand.


    Feeding is important, but they won't take up much feed until they are back on track so don't let your syrup ferment or protein patty dry up by feeding too much too early. When they have brood to feed & are starting to consume well, then feed them up.

    P6111004.jpg
    Last edited by Lauri; 01-27-2018 at 09:54 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    I have no idea what those **** are about?? Please disregard those
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Lauri and others. The LW issue has been covered in so many posts for sure, but to me it is one of the most interesting problems in beekeeping. No “treatment” works for every hive.

    I had 3 LW situations last year. All stemmed from swarms that I hived within a couple of weeks of one another. All with different outcomes. I was able to detect the problem early because all I had to give them was plastic foundation and maybe a half dozen frames were drawn by the time the symptoms arose in the hives.

    Hive 1 - a single frame of eggs did the trick. They made a queen cell and rolled on.

    Hive 2 - after 3 frames of eggs (1 per week) did not produce a queen, I added a mated queen and they accepted her. Hive rolled on.

    Hive 3 - after 3 frames of eggs (1 per week) did not produce a queen, I did a newspaper combine with another hive. I had no queen to use as in hive 2. Combine was successful and the hive rolled on.

    I had checked all the hived swarms after 3 weeks for brood. So I’m pretty sure that I caught the LW’s early and at the same level of progression in each hive. I’m curious if LW’s from a swarm are different than in an established hive or nuc. And with my 3 situations, were the outcomes influence by the different ages of bees in the swarms.
    Zone 7a - 1650ft

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    I have just checked my LW hive.

    A it of background.

    On the 13. Jan ( I checked the date) I planned to split a strong, quiet hive and to my surprise I found it to be a LW hive.

    I shook all the bees off a few metres from the hive. This has worked for me before. I introduced a mated , caged queen on the same day.

    After reading the comments I decided to give the hive a frame of eggs today.

    Not an ideal day with lots of cloud and some showers.

    My eyes are not the best but I'm pretty sure that I saw some single eggs in some cells and definitely young larvae. Looks positive.

    The population I still strong but checking the frames again I did find the queen.

    Looks positive to me but I have very little experience with LW hives - it does not seem to be common here.

    I will be away from my bees for a few weeks and will check them again around the 20. Feb.

    Here is hoping!
    from the Bee House -http://ecologicalsolutions.com.au/bees/?page_id=8
    40 years - +/- 20 H - TF - Subtropical

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Drone larvae in worker cells plus single eggs in bottom centre of the cells equal drone laying queen, not laying workers.

    IE, a queen that is still laying normally but for whatever reason, her eggs are no longer being fertilised so they become drones.

    In these cases requeening is simple, just kill the queen and introduce a new mated queen.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Lauri,

    Your words flow like maple syrup; Quickly, smoothly, with good color.

    "Trust me, I 've tried." LOL
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    " ..... and would rather shake out those bees than risk wasting resources on them, fall into the 'kicking the dead horse' mode. "

    After kicking the dead horse for 6 more inches last year -- never again! Lauri, your post read like my 3 month Odyssey that came to nothing , last year.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    "Your words flow like maple syrup"

    Well there's a new line
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    Problem is, now they have no older bees to 'mentor' them. One of the reason's a rectified LW colony never seems to amount to much.

    Imbalance of ages swings from the geriatric death bed crowd to to a box of kindergartners who know virtually nothing other than instinctive impulses. Sure they can take care of the queen and brood, but *without the older bees guidance, they seem to have no direction past that stage. That's where that frame of brood you may have added early in the game kicks in again for the second time. You still have some bees that will live long enough have had a chance to forage and pass on information to younger bees. That information 'gap' is covered, at least a little bit. That dependence on learned behavior that I think is largely overlooked.
    The same could be said for packaged bees and the issues common with their use.
    Please explain this further.
    I'm interested in what you believe bees teach one another, how one determines it takes place and how learned behaviors are differentiated from
    instinctive behaviors by the beekeeper.
    If instinctive behavior is limited to a certain developmental stage, then honey bees need to rely on learned behaviors to thrive?

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    >Does she actively go out to kill the LWs upon hatching or is it that she goes out and mates and when she starts laying the brood pheromone suppresses LW development?

    Virgin queens only go after virgin queens. They don't go after laying queens and they don't go after laying workers. They don't need to. Once she is laying the brood pheromones will suppress the laying workers.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Virgin queens ... They don't go after laying queens
    I know I shouldn't question your answer, but are you certain? I thought that is why some beekeepers add the queen cell and don't bother to look for the old queen because the virgin will hunt her down and dispatch her. A fight ensues and because the virgin can bend her abdomen better than a laying queen, she usually wins the fight....at least, that is what I've read over the years.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    I got a larger image by copy and paste into an email to myself. In Yahoo mail, there was a circle with 3 dots in the upper right hand corner of the image (hovered to open it) and I changed to "large" which then made the page readable without magnifying glass.

    Thanks for the pages Lburou.
    Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Prvb 16:24
    March 2010; +/- 50 hives, TF

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    >I know I shouldn't question your answer, but are you certain? I thought that is why some beekeepers add the queen cell and don't bother to look for the old queen because the virgin will hunt her down and dispatch her. A fight ensues and because the virgin can bend her abdomen better than a laying queen, she usually wins the fight....at least, that is what I've read over the years.

    It's impossible to say what "always" happens, but I have watched a lot of these things in the observation hive and virgins are not out to kill laying queens. How many people have you seen post here on beesource about finding two queens in their hive? The old queen often stays around until winter. When the new queen is doing well, they stop taking care of the old queen and then she eventually dies. Possibly they dispose of her. What I do know is there is seldom two queens come spring.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    It is situation dependant. So if the new virgin is the result of a natural supersedure cell, the bees will not allow her to attack the old queen until after she has mated and started laying, this is presumably the natural order of things to prevent the old queen being killed before it is certain the new queen is established.

    However when humans create artificial situations a virgin may kill a laying queen. An example of that would be introducing a caged laying queen into a hive that has been queenless a while and has queen cells close to hatching. In such a case if the beekeeper does not kill those queen cells, the resultant virgins would be a very high risk to the laying queen once she is released, and the great majority of the time it will be the laying queen gets killed by the virgin.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Lauri!!!!! - virgin queen to fix a laying worker hive

    See post above

    I checked the hives and all brood ( very poor pattern, IMO) is worker.

    Looks like the process worked - sort of. Definitely no LW anymore.

    Looks like there are some eggs in a better pattern but my eyes don't serve me well with checking eggs - need perfect light.

    The queen is nice and fat and looks well mated...but I did see one queen cell and just wondering if they are planning to replace her??
    from the Bee House -http://ecologicalsolutions.com.au/bees/?page_id=8
    40 years - +/- 20 H - TF - Subtropical

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