treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread - Page 30
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  1. #581

    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    The U of P bee lab posted a social media image of mites washed out of a "Chemical Free" hive in the COMB Project this autumn.

    Cite: https://twitter.com/mmlopezu/status/1182327729707986944
    Gave her some info, via Twitter, and contact information of BartJan Fernhaut, who has bred 100% VSH bees in Hawaii. Maybe they could use proper TF stock next time. She agreed that the bees in CF group were not resistant.

    https://twitter.com/mmlopezu/status/1182327729707986944

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  3. #582
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    LOL. If they use non resistant bees, the results are a forgone conclusion, why even run the trial.

    I didn't know Juhani, that someone in Hawaii had bred 100% VSH bees. How heritable is that down the generations, and does it translate into bees that are long term survivors?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  4. #583

    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    LOL. If they use non resistant bees, the results are a forgone conclusion, why even run the trial.

    I didn't know Juhani, that someone in Hawaii had bred 100% VSH bees. How heritable is that down the generations, and does it translate into bees that are long term survivors?
    BartJan started here in Europe, Arista Reseach, but the big plyers and money are elsewhere...

    Varroa resistance is an additive trait. Free mating with unsuitable drones and it drops to 50%. The transition to TF beekeeping must take place in remote areas, drone congregation or inseminations.

  5. #584
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    ...

    Varroa resistance is an additive trait. Free mating with unsuitable drones and it drops to 50%. ....
    Or a deductive trait.
    The unsuitable drones should be prevented from ever appearing (by terminating their source colonies before they produce any drones).
    In theory.

    About this:
    Free mating with unsuitable drones and it drops to 50%.
    I assume this 50% is just for the purposes of demonstration as I am yet to hear a definitive, quantified definition as in - "the resistance is...... blah".
    What is X% resistant?
    What does it mean?
    Maybe I should read up on something?

    Did anyone ever measure the % of resistant bees in the colony - the sufficient # (either absolute or relative - whichever) so to qualify the entire colony as "resistant"?
    This is a very important practical number (for those of us, the CF people, who lurk in the hostile "free mating" environments).
    Last edited by GregV; 11-14-2019 at 07:49 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #585

    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    What is X% resistant?
    What does it mean?
    Maybe I should read up on something?

    Did anyone ever measure the % of resistant bees in the colony - the sufficient # (either absolute or relative - whichever) so to qualify the entire colony as "resistant"?
    Sorry, I meant the way they count the VSH factor.

    Treated bees + artifical contamination with known number of mites in the moment when new queen (one drone insemination) has her first open brood frame ready for capping. When the brood is capped (or in winter) cells are opened untill sufficiently many mites have been found. Mites fall into two categories: with offspring and without offspring.

    VSH %= varroa resistance = mites found without offspring x 100/ total number of mites found.

  7. #586
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Sorry, I meant the way they count the VSH factor.

    Treated bees + artifical contamination with known number of mites in the moment when new queen (one drone insemination) has her first open brood frame ready for capping. When the brood is capped (or in winter) cells are opened untill sufficiently many mites have been found. Mites fall into two categories: with offspring and without offspring.

    VSH %= varroa resistance = mites found without offspring x 100/ total number of mites found.
    OK, thanks.
    Unsure this is absolutely true, however.
    Partially true - very much likely.
    VSH %= varroa resistance = mites found without offspring x 100/ total number of mites found
    The VR (varroa resistance) is really a multi-variable function with the appropriate coefficients attached to each variable.
    But this is only my educated intuition, obviously.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #587

    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Unsure this is absolutely true, however.
    Not sure either.
    And that is why I have been urging the Arista Group to start real life survival tests.



    Something may be happening, but I cannot tell...

  9. #588
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    This is just practical experience and not scientifically proven. My experience is that around 10% of the bees in a colony have to exhibit mite resistance traits for the entire hive to be classed as resistant. For a colony to be classed as highly resistant, it would need close to 100% of the bees expressing resistance. A resistant colony would survive for years with minimal damage from mites, but would always have significant numbers of mites infesting the colony. A highly resistant colony would survive for years but would have very few mites at any given time.

    When we finally determine the traits involved in mite resistance, I expect to find at least one is that mite resistant bees have enhanced smell receptors and can smell the stressed larvae being fed on by mites.

    As Juhani suggests, the only way to highly concentrate mite resistance is with single drone inseminations followed by screening for resistance.

    I have some raw breeding material that shows significant resistance. It is just a matter of putting in the time and effort to get them to the highly resistant state.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  10. #589
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Those numbers remind of my apiaries before I gave up on "treatment free". My last year of soft treatments, OAD, I had 60%+ losses. Thanks to Charlie I have a big bucket of Mann Lake Terra Patty and it does a great job of cleaning up EFB, which has become a problem here for the last ten years or so. EFB is a stress disease and I see little evidence that it is contagious from infected combs. We had a case at several of our 30 apiaries. One or two doses of the Terra Patty and the hives rebound. I feel mite stress and weak populations is what makes the EFB pop up.
    Three years ago I went to Apivaring every hive upon harvest. This reduced winter losses to below 10% but like local treatment free beeks, we have an increase in summer losses. This seems due to bleak spring weather during swarm queen mating. All residents of our community are required to vaccinate their children who attend public schools. Many of these parents get flu shots. If I get cancer I will likely elect to get radiation and chemo therapy to prolong my life. I would love to be a natural treatment free beekeeper but my business depends on having producing hives. The world around me is a toxic mess and I feel if I do the best I can to survive and at the same time not pollute, I have the done the best I can in this pollution saturated era.

    I laud all of you who stick to your guns and continue to follow being treatment free. This leaves the fields so much more open for me. Because of having some alive hives remaining due to receiving treatments and rearing some of our own queens, I just had a fabulous week of honey sales. I sold a $1006 order of squeeze bottles to a corporate cafeteria, I sold a $1000 order to a produce market, I sold a 262 pound order of comb honey in frames to a local bee and honey supplier, I sold a $462 order to a local grocery store, I had various sales out of my self serve cabinet. I was invited to sell at a corporate Christmas sale. If I had remained treatment free I would still just be crying over dead hives. Not only are my honey sales doing well, this week I also got another apiary client due to my growing reputation of supplying my apiary clients with big honey crops and helping them to "save the bees". I could do none of this with dead untreated hives.

    Best of all, my success due to treating gives me all this to brag about, which will irritate Charlie to no end. I will forward a link of this post to him right now.




    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    it's been awhile since updating the thread, mostly because there hasn't been anything noteworthy to share.

    today was once of those warm (mid-sixties) days we see here just before the passing of a strong cold front along with it's associated storms and big drop in temps on the backside.

    the three (of 12) remaining colonies at the home yard were bringing mostly a chocolate brown pollen with the occasional bright yellow. i've no clue what plants are producing those.

    the outyard has 0 of 9 colonies remaining, the overflow yard has 2 of 3 remaining, and i have a single colonies placed one each at two new locations.

    this puts me at a total of 7 survivors at this point (down from a hive count of 28) with all of winter still to go, along with the promise of receiving one of fusion_power's spares.

    it is interesting to note that the strongest of the colonies at present is a caught swarm that was given almost 2 deep supers worth of drawn comb that was washed and bleached after being recovered from efb infected hives.

    the plan is to see what is left if anything coming out of winter, destroy any colonies and equipment in which efb shows up, and split agressively in an attempt fill up all the empty boxes taking up space in my garage and carport.

    i'll likely ramp up the swarm trapping next spring as well. i'd like to end up with 10 - 15 strong colonies (20 would be nice) spread out between 4 - 5 yards to take into next winter. i'm not expecting much of a honey crop for 2020.
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  11. #590
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Ollie, remember this is the treatment free sub-forum. One of the unique rules reads:

    Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #591
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    Default

    OH NO!! If me and my post are deemed obnoxious by all means the monitor should remove it. No hard feelings. Just telling of my experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Ollie, remember this is the treatment free sub-forum. One of the unique rules reads:

    Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  13. #592
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Actually, I did not find it obnoxious at all, just a bit on the edge of this sub forum's rules. I let it stand, but this is not a path we want to walk on a TF thread.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  14. #593
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    no need to remove ollie's good post. congrats on your success.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #594
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    Default

    Thank you. My thoughts come after 25 years of premite beekeeping, then Apistan, then Checkmite, then 25 years of treatment free beekeeping, 13 years of post " CCD" beekeeping and literally many hundreds of dead untreated colonies over those years. I want to be a beekeeper and support my employee and the expense of being a beekeeper by having honey to sell and paying apiary clients who pay me to keep alive hives at their properties. The day I can do that treatment free I will revert to how we did it 1970 - 1995. I do my best to produce uncontaminated honey but fully understand those practices might not be 100% effective. At the same time we all know fully well the store bought food we eat and the air we breath is not uncontaminated also. The oceans are filthy, our president is lowering pollution standards weekly.... it is the era we live in. We can only do our best to not make it worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    no need to remove ollie's good post. congrats on your success.
    Last edited by JWPalmer; 12-01-2019 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Fix quote
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  16. #595
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    EFB is a stress disease and I see little evidence that it is contagious from infected combs. We had a case at several of our 30 apiaries. One or two doses of the Terra Patty and the hives rebound. I feel mite stress and weak populations is what makes the EFB pop up.
    It depends what you are calling EFB. The genuine article is very contagious. Where i am down under we have a disease that looks like EFB exactly, and cannot be positively distinguished by eye, but a lab can determine there is no EFB infection, the disease is called half moon disease and appears to be caused by a faulty queen.

    The varying experiences of some in the USA over the last 40 years leads me to think there are probably different strains with different effects, or even ailments that mimic EFB but are not.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  17. #596
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Thank you. My thoughts come after 25 years of premite beekeeping, then Apistan, then Checkmite, then 25 years of treatment free beekeeping, 13 years of post " CCD" beekeeping and literally many hundreds of dead untreated colonies over those years. I want to be a beekeeper and support my employee and the expense of being a beekeeper by having honey to sell and paying apiary clients who pay me to keep alive hives at their properties. The day I can do that treatment free I will revert to how we did it 1970 - 1995. I do my best to produce uncontaminated honey but fully understand those practices might not be 100% effective. At the same time we all know fully well the store bought food we eat and the air we breath is not uncontaminated also. The oceans are filthy, our president is lowering pollution standards weekly.... it is the era we live in. We can only do our best to not make it worse.
    I was treatment free for three years so I think this entitles me to at least one post. So, it only took me those three years to go from 55 hives to 12. I learned from Oliver and began using Apivar strips two years ago. Now I have more hives than I really want.

    I wish I could still be treatment free and would never criticize anyone for that decision. Hopefully we’ll get a handle on mites soon and we can all be treatment free.
    My opinions are based on a decade of beekeeping, book learning and watching YouTube videos.

  18. #597
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Maybe they could use proper TF stock next time. She agreed that the bees in CF group were not resistant.
    It wasn't given a fair shake..... re queening in Aug with resistant stocks after the hive sat all year untreated and with non resistant queens building a mite load would seem a sure way to fail, hive could be bombing out before any resistant workers emerge, and those that do emerge are very likly not in great shape.

  19. #598
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Ollie, remember this is the treatment free sub-forum. One of the unique rules reads:
    Well um, no it isn't the treatment free forum. This thread is for open discussion and the opinions of Oddfrank and Ollie were right on the topic.

    Having said that though I think the thread title itself is something of an oxymoron. It is "treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread". For many, wether or not they treat is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of the facts on the ground, what will or will not work for their bees in their area, and opinion may not change that fact.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  20. #599
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Um, OT, note the title under which this was first posted. That post and several follow-up posts were later moved to the appropriate sub forum according to the rules. Odfranks comments were on target for this opinion thread.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  21. #600
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Removed.
    Changed my mind.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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