treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread - Page 26
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  1. #501
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    3 of Dr. Keith Delaplane's lectures from the July Texas Beekeepers Association meeting can be found here
    https://vimeo.com/344216049
    He covers a lot of good stuff about why its been so hard and why progress has bee so slow compared to other trait's and pests.. Ie our bees (in the past) had contact with SHB, had contact with tracheal mites etc. and why its so easy to select for temperament and honey production vs other traits.....

    and there is a lot of good general info on the realitys of selection and breeding, in plane language. I highly sujest it for anyone who is serious about shifting traits in their stock
    MSL:

    Great video- thank you for sharing. I learned a lot from his talk.

    Russ

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  3. #502
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    don't forgert the watch the outher 2... good stuff!

  4. #503
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Treatment free ideology is rooted in the idea that humans can force bees to "evolve" in a single season. This is utter madness.
    not according to dr. keith delaplane. note his comment at 51:48 here:

    https://vimeo.com/344216049?cjevent=...01032a0a24060e

    he is referencing this publication:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5089174/

    from which is quoted:

    "Thus, there may be more within-apiary and local allelic diversity than expected and potentially less diversity at larger scales."

    and:

    "This variation may help explain how a species with such low genetic diversity can nevertheless evolve acaricide resistance and spread rapidly wherever it has been introduced."
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    don't forgert the watch the outher 2... good stuff!
    Thanks, MSL. Please forgive my tech illiteracy- how do you get to the other two lectures?

    Thank you for your help!

    Russ

  6. #505
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Click on the user name ( honkinggoose media) and it takes you to there uploads
    https://vimeo.com/user5981710

    on the subject in this one
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txZtQrMTeag he suggest we realy haven't been breeding, details the failure of his program, and suggests that a true and working TF production queen should be worth $100 when/if it comes around

  7. #506
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Click on the user name ( honkinggoose media) and it takes you to there uploads
    https://vimeo.com/user5981710

    on the subject in this one
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txZtQrMTeag he suggest we realy haven't been breeding, details the failure of his program, and suggests that a true and working TF production queen should be worth $100 when/if it comes around
    MSL:

    I apologize for the delay in my reply as I wanted to watch all four videos before responding. In short, that was excellent information, and I really appreciate you posting all of it. There was a lot of excellent information that was presented which helped flesh-out some basic genetic realities that I understood conceptually but now better understand practically. Four things stood out to me:

    1. The idea that supercedure is likely a 'step backward' from the perspective of overall benefit to the super-organism. I would not have taken as a given that the queen decides what eggs to lay in swarm cells and that the workers decide what eggs to develop into supercedure cells. I suppose the implication here is that from a natural selection perspective, annual swarming is a net benefit to overall species health and our efforts to thwart it in a managed setting at least run the risk of negatively selecting for traits like productivity.

    2. Related to (1), this idea that parasitism is a higher level of biological order. I am still chewing on this one...

    3. The intimation that at least part of the Russian bees ability to withstand varroa is as a direct result of their genetic diversity. I think I might have previously conceptualized the idea of polyandry and genetic heterozygosity being at the foundation of colony resiliency, but it is interesting to think how differently this concept is in reality versus how Russian genetics are marketed (i.e. color phenotype, etc.).

    4. The suggestion that the beekeeping community at-large should be plying in the trade of paternal lines (i.e. Drone Co-Ops) as a means to promote this hybrid vigor rather than focusing so much on the maternal side of the equation- this idea makes a lot of sense to me conceptually.

    Thanks again for posting the video links. I appreciated the education.

    Russ

  8. #507
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Dr. Robyn Underwood of Penn State is embarking on a study of 300 hives, managed side-by-side, by different criteria. My understanding is that there will be three management styles represented: Treatment-Free (on small cell), IPM with organic acids, and traditional treatment (Amitraz and miticides).
    So far, and no suprize, small cell is lacking... 64% losses vs sub 20%
    comb-survival_update-1-705x418.jpg

    from: https://lopezuribelab.com/comb/
    Last edited by squarepeg; 08-24-2019 at 11:32 AM. Reason: added reference

  9. #508
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    I listened to Robyn speak and she has a good project going.

    My personal take on the original intent of the thread is this;
    Heritible traits, VSH and Biting can give a colony an advantage but even the best genetics won't survive the impact of a heavy mite load. They may have increased survivability under noirmal levels of infestation, but a heavy infestation will bring them down. And in the process being 100% treatment free means you have lost some fine genetics and get to start over trying to find good stock. Whereas treatment based on testing for mite loads allows you to intervene when things are too bad for them to handle.

    Nature can and will find a way, it may crash colony numbers down to a level that causes some pollinated species to go extinct from lack of pollination. But hey mother nature is patient, she's played this game countless times. She has time, we don't. As long as we have migratory beekeepers going through our area, import bees from completly different climate zones, stress our bees with more and more aggressive chemical agriculture to make up for an unwillingness to learn from past mistakes then we will have to sometimes treat or face complete loss of our colonies. My own choice is a combined approach of organic acids, drone brood bait/cull, breaks in brood cycle, and in the future maybe enhanced CO2 levels during overwintering ( hoping for more research and guidelines on that front soon). I also try to isolate yards from migratory and hands off beekeepers and heavy agro-chem users. Fortunately the later is resonably easy, the lets try beekeeping folks are harder to isolate from. They are well intentioned, often amusing, and a simple fact of life. I try to dissuade people from hive types that are harder to inspect and manage like top bar and lehrens hives. I recently watched a few videos of the promoter of lehrens hives inspecting colonies and omg, he is so slow and so incomplete in his inspections that a problem could easily be missed. And he's supposed to be the authority on them, how the hell could a new beekeeper do a good job. If I took that long to inspect, my gentlest colony would be rabid by the time I did a complete inspection. Thats no fun for an experienced bee keeper, how the hell is a newb supposed to find this an enjoyable pasttime.

  10. #509
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    [QUOTE=John_M;1750383]I listened to Robyn speak and she has a good project going.

    My personal take on the original intent of the thread is this;
    Heritible traits, VSH and Biting can give a colony an advantage but even the best genetics won't survive the impact of a heavy mite load. Theymay have increased survivability under noirmal levels of infestation, but a heavy infestation will bring them down. And in the process being 100% treatment free means you have lost some fine genetics and get to start over trying to find good stock. Whereas treatment based on testing for mite loads allows you to intervene when things are too bad for them to handle.

    Well stated. I agree 100%.

    Quote: I recently watched a few videos of the promoter of lehrens hives inspecting colonies and omg, he is so slow and so incomplete in his inspections that a problem could easily be missed.

    I have no idea what a lehrens hive is; however, I will say that I do my inspections using very slow movements while finishing quickly. That is because there are certain things that I am checking and need only to see a very few frames to know the hive's condition. Slow movements...quick inspection. In fact, one can tell a lot just by opening and viewing the brood nest from above.

    I agree that at certain times of year, like right now, it's a great idea to be extra vigilant as regards queen failure and the little nasties that can quickly do in a hive.

  11. #510
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Gino, I think you misunderstand me. I mean this guy is slooooooooooow. Not talking about the normal delibirate working that I try to do, I mean painfully agonizingly slow. And yes I agree to not taking a colony apart completly at each inspection. If I just need to see tha a colony is expanding and doesn't need help I will just look inside without pulling frames, swarm prep tip boxes and look underneath, queenright and a good queen just pull one frame of emerging brood and look for eggs. But other times I need more, or at least think I need more.

  12. #511
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    So far, and no suprize, small cell is lacking... 64% losses vs sub 20%
    comb-survival_update-1-705x418.jpg
    MSL:

    Thank you for the update. I had been curious how this project was progressing.

  13. #512
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    msl, please provide a reference for the graph in post #507.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #513
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Me too - what is exactly "lehrens hive"?
    What video about "lehrens hive"?
    Google did not find it.
    I am all ears.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #514
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    I am sure John M meant to say Layens and we all know who the authority is on these types of hives. Personally, I think I would choose this style over a regular topbar or a Warre hive.
    Last edited by JWPalmer; 08-24-2019 at 12:53 PM.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  16. #515
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Yeah, as we get old the eyes are the first to go with the mind following shortly after.

    And yes I agree I would definately go with a layens over a top bar. I would even agree that the deeper frames might have some advantages over a langstroth deep. About the only place I would really consider a top bar is in a mating nuc and I'm a bit sketchy on them even there, but they are expedient.

  17. #516
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    msl, please provide a reference for the graph in post #507.
    https://lopezuribelab.com/comb/

  18. #517
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    (thank you msl, added it to your post)
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #518
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by John_M View Post
    ...
    And yes I agree I would definately go with a layens over a top bar. .....
    Aha!
    I did honestly look for "lehren hive" and found one reference to it (whatever that reference means):
    https://books.google.com/books?id=uT...20hive&f=false

    Well then one needs not to be flipping through the entire hive UNLESS you need to grab/mark the queen (which is NOT a typical mid-season/late operation in a booming hive).
    I have not looked inside main resource hives (16-framer and 20-framer Layens) since about July 4th weekend (when I did the fly-back splits on them).
    No need.
    I just checked/fixed/stole some honey combs from the side.
    I also flipped few outer frames to get to the beginning of the brood (to be sure that there is brood).
    All it is.

    When you really need to work them (say the start of the season), you have to flip through only 5-10 frames.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #519
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Aha!
    I did honestly look for "lehren hive" and found one reference to it (whatever that reference means): [...]
    FWIW - 'lehren' is a German word meaning 'teaching'/ 'teachings'/ 'lessons' etc. So, for example "The teachings of master beekeepers" - becomes - "Die Lehren der Imkermeister".

    But - I'm also sure the person actually meant 'Layens Hive'
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  21. #520
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    Default Re: treating vs. not treating for mites: opinion thread

    Yeah, when I first saw it, I thought it might have been a reference to a teaching hive or what we call an observation hive. But that was out of context with the rest of the post.

    But speaking of the Layens hive, I think building a few would be a good winter project. Especially if I can scrounge some 2 x 10s from a jobsite dumpster.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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