My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Richinbama View Post
    Wow, im reading post and enjoy the back and forth of issues. I'm curious about all bees, and this thread is part of my learning. I'm New, and new to bee source. I see some that are downright rude , and I don't understand why.?? Aren't we all in this to promote our hobby, or business of keeping bees , alive and healthy. No matter how ya do it??? But love to learn more about the mn bees ...
    Here is a link that might help you out in your search for info on MH bees.
    https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/bee...-direction.pdf
    There's a lot more info out there but here's a good start.

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  3. #42
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    Hartford Ohio
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    I do not post that much. Really not good with words. But a few things to think about. Many folks here do a great deal of reading, and sharing information. Take me for example. Fairly new, not established, getting bees from three people. You have no idea if the people or the bees will do you any good. Everyone is looking to keep updated.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Cyberman, thanks for the link. There is recent research( from reading Bee-l) that indicates that FK hygenic bees are not pre disposed to varroa hygenic behavior, but vsh bees are predisposed to fk hygenic behavior. Your bees may be both since they probably open mated with feral stock that already had some vsh traits. Who knows. All that matters in my book is that your bees are still alive. I think in the search for a resistant line of bees, we must first look at survivability, especially when other hives in the same yard crashed and died. I strongly suspect that the genetic mutations necessary for the bees to become truly resistant will happen in small yards. The problem is we small beekeepers do not do the type of monitoring necessary to make claims based on any evidence other than that the bees appear to be thriving while treatment free. A very subjective statement that means a wide variety of things to different people. Couple that with an apparent lack of objective criterea and you end up with people operating more on emotion and less on scientific reasoning. If we want to develope a TF line on bees, we need to start with folks like you with their observations and do further inquery, not subject the beekeeper to ridicule and prejudgement. If your bees are hygenic and survive several more years, you will have the last laugh. If they don't, then there is a good chance that luck had an important role in the earlier success. Do not get discouraged just because some of us have heard this song before and are jaded.

    Remember, WD 40 is so named because it was the fortieth attempt at the formulation.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  5. #44
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    The problem is we small beekeepers do not do the type of monitoring necessary to make claims based on any evidence other than that the bees appear to be thriving while treatment free. A very subjective statement that means a wide variety of things to different people. Couple that with an apparent lack of objective criterea and you end up with people operating more on emotion and less on scientific reasoning.
    Good observation. IMHO, this is a fundamental and near universal problem within the TF community (with a few noteworthy exceptions). When that is coupled with an unwillingness to answer questions (which is anyone's right, of course), Randy Oliver's "the easiest person to fool is yourself" rather than "a successful TF beekeeper" is what comes to mind.

    And, if the TFer's stated goal is "I am not trying to persuade or convince anyone," then, don't be upset when no one is persuaded or convinced.

    JMHO




    .
    Last edited by shinbone; 03-02-2018 at 09:36 AM.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  6. #45
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    Roy, Wa
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    The thing about posting on a public forum is, if you are successful with something as complicated and difficult as having honeybees for any length of time without treatments, is it is usually taken as ether bragging, being somewhat delusional, ignorant or have a conflict of interest. *And with good reason because it many times is the case. The ignorance is just not apparent to the poster yet. Lord knows I've posted things years ago I cringe over now, reading the simplistic bliss of my inexperience at that time.
    But those with more experience with beekeeping & reading Beesource threads over the years have seen it before, many, many times and the outcome is pretty typical.*

    Just like those predictable threads EVERY November: "My bees are DEAD!"
    And the questions posed to the OP:
    'Did you treat?" answer-No
    'Did you requeen?' - No
    'Did you feed? '- No,*But they looked great last week!

    When folks are successful, experienced beekeepers are happy for them, but guarded because we all know it won't last forever with some kind of intervention. Queens get older and slow down, conditions change both within the hive and outside the hive.

    The danger with a topic like yours is, beginners see statements claiming success, naming a certain strain of honey bee and they will get a unrelenting craving to order those queens, especially if they have a fancy name. They'll feel like all they need to do is get a few of these and their troubles are over!
    It does do a disservice to those enthusiastic, but somewhat gullible*folks to post a success story without specific details or facts.

    Details matter. They are critical to understanding no only issues with bees but understanding exactly why you may currently be successful. Give the credit or blame to the wrong thing, your hives are living on borrowed time and you risk not being able to reproduce your success down the road. Even worse, you also risk leading other beekeepers down the wrong road. That can cause the unintended consequences of a tremendous amount of losses and labor for them.

    With open mating and no genetic testing available to tell exactly what line queens are, naming lines is just guessing at the lineage. You can keep track of the origination of your queens and the possible exposures they've had to the local drone population. Anything more detailed than that is just a guess.

    Just ask my buddy Giorgio
    according-to-ancient-alien-theorists-18865-1295934994-10.jpg
    Last edited by Lauri; 03-02-2018 at 10:33 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Nailed it.

    Also; I've totally misunderstood good and bad advice and not known the difference for years.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  8. #47
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    Interesting that you can suffer from SHB in state with Winters as nasty as what Maine gets
    Hey Shinbone, I am in Michigan and I have beatles also.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by MichiganMike View Post
    Hey Shinbone, I am in Michigan and I have beatles also.
    Now you guys are really scaring me!

    Maybe it is our perpetual low humidity that keeps those nasty things at bay.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  10. #49

    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Having shb and having them at epidemic proportions are two different things.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  11. #50
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Well . . . since I don't have SHB for no apparent reason, I will name my daughter queens "Colorado Beetle-Bust'n Queens," and sell them. And if people asked for data to prove their efficacy, I will start the "SHB Treatment Free Forum" where no criticism would be allowed, and angrily say I don't have to prove anything to anyone.

    I bet I would make a fortune.








    .
    Last edited by shinbone; 03-02-2018 at 01:07 PM.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  12. #51
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    Default

    Lauri summed up the snarky-poster problem beautifully. A big Thank you to her for kindly explaining the phenomenon. There is a lot of unintended misleading that happens, and some folks get pretty burned by it.

    The questions I have are: 1 Do you know what generation of queen you are dealing with, because if the queen has been replaced several times in three years, the claimed apparent Minnesota Hygenic-ness of the queen might be from local drone stock. In which case, your MH brand queen may be geneticall much different than someone else’s MH brand.

    2. What are your mite counts by sugar roll or alcohol wash over the season? Bottom board counts are notoriously inaccurate because many mites disappear with the sick bee that doesn’t return. This doesn’t mean the hive isn’t suffering from mites. And sometimes you can get a ton of mites on a bottom board because the bees are actively grooming them off each other. Also, monthly mite checks can give clues to the rate of build-up and possible mechanism of mite resistance. (Mite Bombs, or Mites with chewed off legs are examples)

    3. What everyone wants to know, including you, I would guess is, “does this work for other people too?” Your post asks for other’s experiences. I’d pay $100 for a queen that would eliminate mites, or live peacefully with them. But the truth is that most claims that are supported with regular mite counts, good record keeping, and adequate controls show only moderate improvement in the mite situation when tested in multiple environments.

    4. The local environment is crucial. I thought I was the world’s best beekeeper my first 5 years. None of my hives died. Later I learned that my early success was likely due to the fact that I had a completely isolated hive in 2001, where they simply weren’t exposed to mites, and the forage was plentiful. That wasn’t skill, it was luck, and very hard to replicate these days.

    So please enjoy your success while it lasts. Ask questions to learn as much as possible, and if you can bring yourself to do monthly mite counts, that information could be really helpful to the rest of us. It might show a cool build up and elimination pattern, it might show that the might levels are always kept low, or it might show mite levels through the roof, but somehow the bees remain healthy. That info furthers the field AND has the bonus side effect of silencing the doubters.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    They usually do not overwinter, they can though.
    Fresh batch of beetles are shipped in every year with packages. My bad, thinking I was safe.
    Sorry salty your 100% mistaken they survive very well anywhere in a live hive.....
    500-1000 hives mostly honey

  14. #53
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    So, hoping to get the thread "back on topic", is there anyone else that would like to share their experiences with MH bees?

  15. #54
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    The thing about your bees they will need a new queen at some time in the future. And I just hope that there are hives with good genetics for them to mate with so you will continue to have hives that will survive. For me I'm going to bring in some vsh bees this year. I just have to try to get some bees that can keep the mite count down my best producing hive had a mite count over 30 when I took off the honey. You can always check how Hygenic your bees are you just need some liquid nitrogen and freeze a little brood if they clean it out in a day they'll be good ones to make queens from.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the bee guy View Post
    You can always check how Hygenic your bees are you just need some liquid nitrogen and freeze a little brood if they clean it out in a day they'll be good ones to make queens from.
    sorry to stray off topic but the experts are getting away from using freeze-killed brood removal as a selection criterion:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...9.2018.1426350

    "We conclude that removal of FKB is not a good estimate for hygienic behavior towards Varroa mites in unselected stocks."
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #56
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Up in NE OH, a beek who posts here occasionally has used Minnesota Hygenic open mated in his area to satisfactory success. He can tell his own story about bee management, and it is instructive.... but here is a story from me. I had 3 queens descended from a swarm who alighted in my pine tree in 2015. And I had the MH-feral bee from a nuc I purchased from the nearby beek. I got 2 daughters of hers successfully mated, so I had 3 queens from my original swarm, and 3 with MH-feral hygenic genetics.

    I had trouble getting OAV to work. It's my sole treatment, aside from drone culling and splits. In short, I was accidentally treatment free this summer until Oct-Nov.

    Fast forward to fall - mite counts with alcohol wash at 20+ for all 6 hives. 2 of my swarm daughters died in Nov-Dec, one more this past Feb. So far, MH descendants are the ones left standing. I guess I'll be splitting from them this year. I have figured out the OAV issue and they have been treated - so late - better next year. I would not say these are varroa-proof bees. I have not worked with Italians or packages, but many first year beeks in my bee club who were trying to follow the rules have lost their bees this winter. They get packages. Just sayin'...Tho many have good luck with their packages.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    sorry to stray off topic but the experts are getting away from using freeze-killed brood removal as a selection criterion:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...9.2018.1426350

    "We conclude that removal of FKB is not a good estimate for hygienic behavior towards Varroa mites in unselected stocks."
    To stay on topic I stated what Minnesota Hygenic is if you want vsh you must open brood cell and count the reproductive mites. I also said he must have the right mix of hygene and vsh.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    Cyberman,
    any updates on the progress of the colonies? Interested to hear how the season went.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    yeah the whole world's watchin'
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  21. #60
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    Default Re: My experience with Minnesota Hygienic bees

    I bought in 50 of the Olivarez Min Hygienic/VSH queens this past spring. I really like the way they built up. some of my best yards they averaged 200 lbs while the other stock was around 150lbs per hive. I do find they are a touch more aggressive than my older stock , but also only noticed they got testy in the fall (mid-late September). Mites were pretty low for us this year in general so I can't say they are carrying lower mite loads , but maybe next year I can see better. All looked good going into winter real nice cluster sizes and good amount of stores. If I need any early queens this spring I would buy them again.

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