Lithium chloride as miticide - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    I think you are opening yourself up to a whole boatload of liability. I would happily disclose any treatments I use to customers. Until more studies are done, I would rather mainline Chinese honey than eat someone's honey that used Lithium. And I think it is borderline criminal to use a potentially psychiatric/mood-altering substance in a hive and not disclose it.
    Ask two beekeepers, get three answers

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Lithium is sold over the counter, as a supplement to improve cognition, prevent dementia, and increase neurogenesis. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n...8&rnid=3760931

    This is dangerous stuff. Who knows what will happen. It might produce a mutated "super race" of intelligent bees. ...the next thing you know, they'll be building nuclear weapons.

  4. #63

    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Qvox View Post
    Lithium is sold over the counter, as a supplement to improve cognition, prevent dementia, and increase neurogenesis. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n...8&rnid=3760931

    This is dangerous stuff. Who knows what will happen. It might produce a mutated "super race" of intelligent bees. ...the next thing you know, they'll be building nuclear weapons.
    I donīt think we need to be cynical about this.
    It will be a setback to resistant bee breeding. If future provides more pests we need to have bees resistant to varroa destructor....

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    I donīt think we need to be cynical about this.
    It will be a setback to resistant bee breeding. If future provides more pests we need to have bees resistant to varroa destructor....
    I'm not being cynical. I'm being sarcastic.

    I'm not optimistic that this new treatment (or any treatment) will eradicate varroa, so the income of people who benefit from raising or promoting hygienic queens, and the manufacture of other chemical treatments, will be safe. But your comment does bring up an interesting point.

    If we did stumble upon something that is cheap, safe, and 100% effective, the change to the industry would be dramatic. I could see why some commercial interests might not want a safe, cheap, and effective treatment coming to market. (That last part was cynical)
    Last edited by Qvox; 01-24-2018 at 03:02 PM.

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    I donīt think we need to be cynical about this.
    It will be a setback to resistant bee breeding. If future provides more pests we need to have bees resistant to varroa destructor....
    it's reductio ad absurdum and a lousy and pointless argument. Edit, I should clarify...not your argument, Qvox's.

    And Qvox, if you disclose that you use it to the customer, feel free to put any over the counter drug you want in your hive. My only wonder is if it's a felony or a misdemeanor.

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Branman View Post
    it's reductio ad absurdum and a lousy and pointless argument. Edit, I should clarify...not your argument, Qvox's.

    And Qvox, if you disclose that you use it to the customer, feel free to put any over the counter drug you want in your hive. My only wonder is if it's a felony or a misdemeanor.
    Reductio ad Absurdum, with a little self righteous indignation sprinkled on top.

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Qvox View Post
    If we did stumble upon something that is cheap, safe, and 100% effective, the change to the industry would be dramatic. I could see why some commercial interests might not want a safe, cheap, and effective treatment coming to market. (That last part was cynical)
    The market opportunity for a mechanism to eradicate/control invasive species simply dwarfs any beekeeping commercial interests. This is why so much cash is being pumped into solving the dsRNA delivery problem. To put it in context the emerald ash borer is calculated to have cost the US forestry industry $10bn.

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    My two cents on this discussion. The hype about the news is too much. Some preliminar studies under lab conditions, on adult bees, are not enough to try to apply this drug on your own bees. Beeks need to wait few more years to know if this "silver bullet" is on target. Or they need to wait the release of another bullet (dsRNA??). In the meanwhile, the correct use of OA, FA, chemicals (where still working), IPM tecniques, are more than enough to cope with the mites. No shortcut, sorry.
    This is my idea,

    Additionally some quotes from the authors

    "LiCl (and other Li salts) are a very interesting class of compounds with a fascinating efficacy against Varroa mites and an obvious completely new mode of action. That is fine, but at the moment this is still Science."

    "We underestimated the power of social media, resulting in crazy activities of beekeeper from South Africa till Canada."

    "For a new veterinary product there are 4 steps required:
    1. An idea or hint to test something or a general screening
    2. Test of general properties of a new compund (efficacy, side effects etc.)
    3. Making a product (i.e. how to apply, how often etc.)
    4. Registration

    We have more or less finished the second point."

    "We added a respective comment to our press release!"

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    DELETED, double post

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by MichiganMike View Post
    It is a lot to read and pretty small print but I tried. As far as I could tell it does not treat the mites in the cells? Is that correct? If so it is still a big step forward.
    Correct. They are still working with adult bees in lab.cages

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote, +1

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Spur9 View Post
    Did a search for Lithium Chloride and Bees. Interesting that over 100 years ago, someone was feeding it to their bees in an experiment. Don't think it was for mites though.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=OK...20bees&f=false
    Interesting. If I understood correctly, at that time, Lithium was used as "tracker" to see if the sugar feeding ends up in the super.. and they found it!

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Lithium Chloride for Varroa

    Quote Originally Posted by Kcnc1 View Post
    Can someone with a chemistry background solve the following for me ( from the article).

    How much lithium chloride to how much sugar water to achieve : single application of only 10 μl of LiCl in a 25 mM solution.
    that's easy

    there are 1000 mMol to 1 Mol.

    1 Mol of LiCl is 42.394grams

    and 0.025 is 25mM

    you take .025 times the 1Mol weight of 42.394g and your answer is...

    1.0598grams LiCl

    don't use this stuff in your hives

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by radallo View Post
    Interesting. If I understood correctly, at that time, Lithium was used as "tracker" to see if the sugar feeding ends up in the super.. and they found it!
    The lithium was used in the production of dsRNA's they were testing. It was not used as a "tracker". They also tested Lithium sulphate, Lithium lactate, Lithium acetate, Lithium citrate, which all generated similar results. 100% mite death with concentrations as low as 4mM.

    The lower concentration took longer, but the results were the same.

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by radallo View Post
    Interesting. If I understood correctly, at that time, Lithium was used as "tracker" to see if the sugar feeding ends up in the super.. and they found it!
    It's used as a medium to hold the RNA treatment. Frankly, the RNA stuff is way more interesting than the lithium gig - it isn't as if we don't have lots of treatment options. RNA could solve lots of invasive species issues. It works but they haven't solved the delivery problem.

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    It's used as a medium to hold the RNA treatment. Frankly, the RNA stuff is way more interesting than the lithium gig - it isn't as if we don't have lots of treatment options. RNA could solve lots of invasive species issues. It works but they haven't solved the delivery problem.
    I agree. However, as I understand it, companies like Monsanto are encoding it into the DNA of crops. So that when pests eat it the plant’s self-made DvSnf7 dsRNA disrupts a critical gene and kills the pest. It's a most interesting mode of attack, but very complex, and challenging to develop. I read an article about Monsanto using it in their genetically modified corn to fight western corn rootworm.

    I like the idea of low-tech approach of using lithium as an effective miticide. It seems like a perfect winter treatment, or as someone wrote earlier in this thread, used in packaged bees. They found that mite kills where 100% with as little as one single 24 hour feeding.

    I don't believe it's a "silver bullet" that will eradicate varrora, but it'd be nice to have another effective weapon in the arsenal. They know it works, they know effective doses don't effect bee mortality. So, the next test is to determine it's affect on hive products. I imagine it's something a person wouldn't want to use during a nectar flow. But it would be easy enough to get a lab to tests a hives honey or wax, to determine the levels of lithium present.

    Lithium is already found in certain vegetables that we all eat, and most drinking water. People actually buy and take lithium as a supplement. So, it's not the boogeyman some here make it out to be. But I'm all for testing to make sure hive products aren't adversely affected.

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    I'm all for a new, safe treatment. I do not consider a compound used to treat psychiatric disorders as safe for my consumption.

    I'm glad that I don't buy honey from some of you folks. I seriously can't believe that anyone would attempt to try this until enough research is done to PROVE both it's safety and it's efficacy.

    If you're bent on trying something that's a guaranteed miticide and not concerned about the potential health risks, spray a gallon of gasoline over the top of your wintering cluster, covering all frames, every nook and cranny. I guarantee you that will kill mite in the hive and in the cells.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    I'm all for a new, safe treatment. I do not consider a compound used to treat psychiatric disorders as safe for my consumption.

    I'm glad that I don't buy honey from some of you folks. I seriously can't believe that anyone would attempt to try this until enough research is done to PROVE both it's safety and it's efficacy.

    If you're bent on trying something that's a guaranteed miticide and not concerned about the potential health risks, spray a gallon of gasoline over the top of your wintering cluster, covering all frames, every nook and cranny. I guarantee you that will kill mite in the hive and in the cells.
    I think we understand your position on the subject. But pouring gasoline on a hive kinda sorta defeats the purpose ....doesn't it? You're overreacting.

    You should know, lithium is already in the food you eat, and water you drink. There's actually an RDA for lithium. People take lithium supplements, which you can buy over the counter, to improve cognition, and prevent dementia. It's been shown to induce neurogenesis, actually growing certain brain cells. There are studies which show that states that have higher concentrations of lithium in the water have lower levels of clinical depression, suicide, and violent crimes. Lithium is in nature.

    It's doubtful that one 24 hour exposure in late fall or winter would have any effect on honey production. Unless you're located in place where there is no agriculture, golf courses, or manicured lawns, you're bees are routinely exposed to nastier stuff while foraging their enviornment.

    We already know that an effective treatment concentration has zero effect on bee mortality. So unlike gasoline, it doesn't effect the bees. We're talking about 1/4 teaspoon per liter (1.05g/L) of syrup, which isn't fed during a nectar flow anyway.

    With all that said, no one is suggesting lacing honey with lithium for its potential positive effects. It's a simple enough process to send samples of honey and wax to a lab for testing, ...to make sure.

  20. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qvox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by radallo View Post
    Interesting. If I understood correctly, at that time, Lithium was used as "tracker" to see if the sugar feeding ends up in the super.. and they found it!
    The lithium was used in the production of dsRNA's they were testing. It was not used as a "tracker". They also tested Lithium sulphate, Lithium lactate, Lithium acetate, Lithium citrate, which all generated similar results. 100% mite death with concentrations as low as 4mM.

    The lower concentration took longer, but the results were the same.
    I strongly doubt 100 years ago they were looking for RNAtech....

  21. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by radallo View Post
    Interesting. If I understood correctly, at that time, Lithium was used as "tracker" to see if the sugar feeding ends up in the super.. and they found it!
    It's used as a medium to hold the RNA treatment. Frankly, the RNA stuff is way more interesting than the lithium gig - it isn't as if we don't have lots of treatment options. RNA could solve lots of invasive species issues. It works but they haven't solved the delivery problem.
    See my previous post

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