Lithium chloride as miticide - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Order some chemicals online, scratch some numbers out from a few other online sources, borrow the wife's measuring spoon again. Eyeball some powder into syrup, mix it with your finger, feed the bees. Great, no more mites! Oh crap, that hive died, and it looks like it got robbed out. Oh well.

    Meanwhile, the beekeeper down the street starts harvesting his honey that seems to have some extra zing to it.

    Please don't. Not yet. We have plenty of good treatments to get you through till its been tried in more controlled environs.
    Mistakes are the best taechers

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    hnestly that study straight up negates itself with way to many might maybe possibly used in the wording

    there are no clear repeatable effects to be shown.

    I wouldn't hold my breath hoping here.

    lithium is bad stuff not to be played with by the untrained

    more hooey again.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Given that lithium's therapeutic effect is at a fairly low dosage (tens to hundreds of mg), even if it's completely "safe" for the bees it will be difficult to approve. The dosage the paper mentions is 25 mmol or ~1060 ppm. Since they fed it as a sugar solution, once stored/concentrated by the bees said sugar-honey will likely be 2-4x higher concentration of lithium. This could prove to be a problem since bees are known to move around honey. On a positive note it shouldn't bioaccumulate in the wax so, like oxalic/formic, once used it's not going to build up in the hive like some of the hydrophobic miticides do.

    Hopefully though it will give researchers more tools to work with and understand the mechanistic mode of action. Lithium ions are well known to be quite toxic to aquatic invertebrates (~1ppm for daphnia) so I suspect there is likely a lot of info out there that could be used to derive a method of action.

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Beebeard, you totally nailed it! Thank you.
    Please don't use this, folks. Way too many unknowns and possible harmful effects not clearly understood or tested.
    Lets wait and see what future tests and studies reveal.
    Brian

  6. #45
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    Wayne, WV, USA
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Even if you buy the .18 per gram bottle of LiCl, an OAV treatment is still way cheaper and safer on the bees, brood and queen.

    No LiCl for me until much more extensive research is being done, and even then it might be a hard sell to me because if customers caught on that I'm feeding lithium to my bees, what's in the honey?? (from their perspective)
    "The amazing thing about the honey bee is not that she works, but that she works for others." St. John Chrysostom

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Cheap, effective, and it doesn't kill bees. ...sign me up.

    Lithium is the active molecule, so lithium citrate, lithium sulphate, lithium acetate, lithium carbonate, and lithium lactate all worked. 25mM or less, higher doses were no more effective. I doubt anyone makes this into a "product", it's not complicated, and the active ingredient can't be patented. So, I wouldn't expect a whole of lot of research to be done on this treatment, beyond what's already available.

    There's enough information here I'd be willing to try it. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-19137-5#Fig3

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    I read the report very thoroughly and even put in my "Beekeeping Techniques Binder". I was in the same boat as Qvox. I even ordered some LiCl but returned it because these are the questions and concerns I have:

    1. Does it harm the brood if nurse bees feed it to the young larvae?
    2. Does it have any long-lasting effects on the queen (fed RJ)?
    3. Does it affect sperm viability that is stored in her spermatheca?
    4. Does it affect developing drones?
    5. Does it affect sperm maturation/viability of drones?

    • Most all the tests were done on caged, newly hatched worker bees with no brood, queens, or drones present.
    • It would still have to be applied during a broodless period if the applicator was trying to feed in conditions as close to the study as possible, and the lab is totally different than the field.
    • LiCl is still 3 times more expensive than OAV: $.75 for an LiCl treatment vs $.21 for three rounds of oxalic acid.
    • Also, if the bees are fed for 24 hours, what to do with leftover medicated syrup? Store it in separate containers? Not here. I already have enough to keep track of.
    • I haven't even mentioned applicator safety: since Lithium is a heavy metal used to regulate mood in depressed/bipolar patients, what about absorption through the skin or inhalation of vapors (if someone were adding it to hot syrup)? (I don't know; I'm just asking questions.) What effect would that have, long-term? I tend to move as quickly as possible through the yard, and I might get careless...


    I'll stick to what is working for me and let the university researchers figure this one out. But if it kills mites under the cappings with no damage to the larvae, queen, drones, or brood, I will consider it.
    "The amazing thing about the honey bee is not that she works, but that she works for others." St. John Chrysostom

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaW View Post
    <snip>

    I'll stick to what is working for me and let the university researchers figure this one out. But if it kills mites under the cappings with no damage to the larvae, queen, drones, or brood, I will consider it.
    The way it's delivered (systemically), it's not going to kill mites in capped brood. I could see this as a viable late fall early winter treatment, to break the mite cycle. Perhaps with a late winter follow-up treatment before nectar flow. It appears from the research that less than 25mM concentrations were as effective, they just took longer to kill the mites. Lower, short term exposure (less than 5 days) had no statistically significant effect on bee mortality. Only when they continuously feed it did it effect the bees.

    I'm thinking testing it on one apiary this fall, treat half the hives, and use the other half as the control, to see how it does.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Qvox View Post
    The way it's delivered (systemically), it's not going to kill mites in capped brood.
    It's possibly that it might have an effect if it's in the royal jelly that's fed to the open brood.

    Regarding cost...it's still ridiculously cheap compared to MAQS or Apivar. For the commercial guys, there's no upfront cost for a hugely expensive OAV blower ($4,000). Even if we consider the "cheap" pan type that hobbiests use, the break even point for LiCl vs OAV is 60 hives (presume $100 pan + $20 mask, $0.50 difference in price per 3 treatment cycle). That assumes an equal effectiveness and OAV is definitely not as effective as this study shows LiCl is.

    Not supporting it at all until real research can be done (including the human health risk), but it shouldn't be dismiss it for a $0.50 difference per treatment when most other approved treatments are several times that price.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaW View Post
    I read the report very thoroughly and even put in my "Beekeeping Techniques Binder". I was in the same boat as Qvox. I even ordered some LiCl but returned it because these are the questions and concerns I have:

    1. Does it harm the brood if nurse bees feed it to the young larvae?
    2. Does it have any long-lasting effects on the queen (fed RJ)?
    3. Does it affect sperm viability that is stored in her spermatheca?
    4. Does it affect developing drones?
    5. Does it affect sperm maturation/viability of drones?

    • Most all the tests were done on caged, newly hatched worker bees with no brood, queens, or drones present.
    • It would still have to be applied during a broodless period if the applicator was trying to feed in conditions as close to the study as possible, and the lab is totally different than the field.
    • LiCl is still 3 times more expensive than OAV: $.75 for an LiCl treatment vs $.21 for three rounds of oxalic acid.
    • Also, if the bees are fed for 24 hours, what to do with leftover medicated syrup? Store it in separate containers? Not here. I already have enough to keep track of.
    • I haven't even mentioned applicator safety: since Lithium is a heavy metal used to regulate mood in depressed/bipolar patients, what about absorption through the skin or inhalation of vapors (if someone were adding it to hot syrup)? (I don't know; I'm just asking questions.) What effect would that have, long-term? I tend to move as quickly as possible through the yard, and I might get careless...


    I'll stick to what is working for me and let the university researchers figure this one out. But if it kills mites under the cappings with no damage to the larvae, queen, drones, or brood, I will consider it.
    Just an FYI, lithium is not a heavy metal. My concern would be the psychoactive nature of it. Not sure if the government would allow it's use associated with a food substance.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodyFarms View Post
    It's possibly that it might have an effect if it's in the royal jelly that's fed to the open brood.

    Regarding cost...it's still ridiculously cheap compared to MAQS or Apivar. For the commercial guys, there's no upfront cost for a hugely expensive OAV blower ($4,000). Even if we consider the "cheap" pan type that hobbiests use, the break even point for LiCl vs OAV is 60 hives (presume $100 pan + $20 mask, $0.50 difference in price per 3 treatment cycle). That assumes an equal effectiveness and OAV is definitely not as effective as this study shows LiCl is.

    Not supporting it at all until real research can be done (including the human health risk), but it shouldn't be dismiss it for a $0.50 difference per treatment when most other approved treatments are several times that price.
    I'm not sure that there is anything to be concerned about with lithium at these concentration levels. Of course timing, like with all treatments, would be important, to produce a pure product. But I don't think people should be concerned about lithium, if it is effective.

    It should be interesting to note that lithium is promoted by those who are into nootropics. Several research papers have been written on it's ability to promote neurogenesis in the human brain, and it's possible use in reversing certain neurodegenerative diseases. Of all the crap used in agriculture, the use of lithium in small concentrations, for a limited period of time should be the least of our concerns.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodyFarms View Post
    It's possibly that it might have an effect if it's in the royal jelly that's fed to the open brood.
    That's one effect I would like to know from funded researchers.

    Regarding cost...it's still ridiculously cheap compared to MAQS or Apivar.
    I only compared it to the oxalic acid cost sans vaporizer since that's a one-time shot that should last most of our beekeeping careers.

    That assumes an equal effectiveness and OAV is definitely not as effective as this study shows LiCl is.
    only a 4% difference if you assume oav is 96% and licl is 100%. but that efficacy test was done on caged bees with no brood, drones, or queen present.

    For the commercial guys, there's no upfront cost for a hugely expensive OAV blower ($4,000).
    but i'd bet the commercial guys take that cost into account when they make the investment in the equipment.

    Even if we consider the "cheap" pan type that hobbiests use, the break even point for LiCl vs OAV is 60 hives (presume $100 pan + $20 mask, $0.50 difference in price per 3 treatment cycle).
    what about accounting for storage containers for unused medicated syrup, storage space for those containers, possible disposal of unused syrup, etc?

    Not supporting it at all until real research can be done (including the human health risk)
    me neither

    but it shouldn't be dismiss it for a $0.50 difference per treatment when most other approved treatments are several times that price.
    i'm not dismissing it; I just want some more research done before I commit. Can any of us that use OAV claim that that is an approved treatment?? Dribble is, but vapor??
    "The amazing thing about the honey bee is not that she works, but that she works for others." St. John Chrysostom

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    I see no harm in trying this treatment on one of my colonies as a trial. Can someone convert the minimum required measurements into grams and gallons? I would not take honey or move brood from the colony but I would feed while brood is present. In fact through a whole brood cycle. I really do not care about cost. And if no honey or brood is removed what possible harm can come to humans?

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    A gram in a litre of syrup would be close enough. See post 29 and post 34.
    Bill

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Rusty from Honey bee suite had a interesting reply.
    https://honeybeesuite.com/treat-your...d-the-lithium/

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    I am just face-palming over and over. We can't stop anybody from throwing anything in their own hives, but man, let's give it some scientific tests before we start throwing Lithium in our hives. Robbing, or any number of things could happen which could spread it around. Who knows? Answer is nobody. Just my two cents.
    Ask two beekeepers, get three answers

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    My biggest concern is the people who eat my honey. Lithium is a very active chemical. You are feeding it in syrup. It will end up in the honey at some level. What effect will it have on the humans?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Since lithium is the active ingredient, I wonder if Lithium Oxalate would work.

    Lithium oxalate is a strong dicarboxylic acid occurring in many plants and vegetables. It is produced in the human body by metabolism of glyoxylic acid or ascorbic acid. In humans it is not metabolized but excreted in the urine.

  20. #59

    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by greengage View Post
    Rusty from Honey bee suite had a interesting reply.
    https://honeybeesuite.com/treat-your...d-the-lithium/
    Chatted with Erik Österlund about the article, that´s what he said:
    Lithium is used in psychiatry, which also some comments have included in their comments. It’s a mood stabilizer used mostly in bipolar disease treatment, with a lot of undesired side effects that can occur. And the salt is water soluble, that is honey soluble. Don’t understand why the article on the paper is so positive as if it was kind of a silver bullet.

    Erik
    Nice to have the honey. Makes us all more stable, perhaps?

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    People are reacting to the word lithium, like they do the word nuclear, or radiation. It's really not that scary folks. Lithium oxalate is found in certain plants, and people actually take lithium orotate as a supplement to improve cognition, induce neurogenesis, and prevent age related dementia.

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