Lithium chloride as miticide - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Ah-ha read the link.
    I was born in 1950 so did miss use in the 40s as a salt substitute and discontinued due to toxic effects.

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  3. #122
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAceBees View Post
    After my last post, I received this kind and encouraging private message from a Dick Cryberg in Ohio:


    Is Dick just that, or is there a true legal issue here? Has anyone heard of a US lab testing this? I realize that any non-approved treatment is risky, but anecdotal evidence suggests that thousands of gallons of 12% Amitraz are crossing the border into the US and are then used in commercial beehives nationwide in a wholly illegal manner. Organic acids are dangerous to the person applying them as well, and are also deadly to larval bees. The fact of the matter is that we do not have a satisfactorily affordable mite treatment method and the faster we can get answers to the question of whether this treatment is worth pursuing or should go the way of Coumaphos, Fluvalinate and Fumagilin the better our industry will be.
    I'm not against responsible experimentation. That chastisement offended my libertarian sensibilities. Cryberg hopes you are put in jail for conducting an experiment on your own bees with your own equipment, and money? That's absurd.

    Personally, the only reason I wouldn't do it is because after reading the research paper I realized that there was just too many unanswered questions, and I wasn't willing to do the work.

    Most of what the EPA does is make work for the EPA, to justify it's budget and salary. It also caters to lobbyist that don't like cheap, non-patentable solutions. If this treatment ends up being as good as the initial research suggests it might, then it will change the industry.

    What happens when varroa destructor is eliminated as a threat? Think about it.

  4. #123
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    put in jail for conducting an experiment on your own bees with your own equipment, and money? That's absurd.
    Would you feel the same about a farmer 1/4 mile away using experimental insecticides that havent been tested/approved ?

    responsible experimentation includes a permit, testing, replicates, and destruction of the "contaminated" honey

    I would wager 99%+ of the "experimenters" on BS don't plan on giving up their honey crop
    The internet is instant, and the internet is often wrong-Kim Flottum

  5. #124
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Would you feel the same about a farmer 1/4 mile away using experimental insecticides that havent been tested/approved ?

    responsible experimentation includes a permit, testing, replicates, and destruction of the "contaminated" honey

    I would wager 99%+ of the "experimenters" on BS don't plan on giving up their honey crop
    Approved by the FDA?

    lol

    They've "approved" a lot of really unhealthy things over their history. You don't have to be a scientist to understand that the concentrations used for this application are fairly small.

    Dilution is your friend.

    With that said, I've already stated my position on this matter. Threatening, or wishing, another human would be kidnapped and locked in a cage for 10 years isn't cool, in my opinion.

  6. #125
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Qvox
    With that said, I've already stated my position on this matter. Threatening, or wishing, another human would be kidnapped and locked in a cage for 10 years isn't cool, in my opinion.
    I am with you on this and so are almost everyone else on the thing they are doing and are comfortable with. There are enough rules that everybody has their favorite rule to violate like was mentioned on things like taktic from mexico or wood bleach from home depot.

    Squarepeg listed a quote from randy oliver about the lithium but Randy also made one other point on this subject and that was that he had mixed feelings of this being recognized as a mite treatment cause as it stands now with out that distinction, it could be used as a feed supplement right now and would not violate anything. Now this was not said in a way that everything should be used but more (how I took it) that you sometimes lose good things when the gov gets involved. Now I did not take it that randy thought people should try it with no understanding. It was just a point being made that it would be made different to the gov if used for mite treatment. So just recognizing a fact.

    In the end, finding whether safe or not is a complete different thing then whether legal or not.

    Many do safe things that are not technically legal and don't feel bad if they do it and some do some things that are legal cause the subject has not been addressed but are still unsafe.

    I Don't have enough info to decide that lithium chloride is safe to use and so I would not sell the honey but if I wanted to see what is did to mites, I might try it out first and if it then seemed worth it, I might go further and get those permits and pay for test. Somebody did that with oxalic acid twenty years before a permit was requested and it became approved and nobody was going to jail.

    There are things that are too far and then there are things that end up being common sense. So far oxalic has fell under the common sense. Maybe lithium cloride will also or maybe not but gathering info on it will probably not end you up in jail and I bet some will be experimented with before lots of people go though the trouble to get permits to go further.

    It may not be the way it is supposed to work but is probably the way it really works in real life, more times then not.

    Of course there are always people that like other people to march to the common drum, Look at Galileo who was put in such a jail till he died cause he thought the earth moved around the sun. I do understand there are many in society that think you should follow the rules and only break the ones they break or at least don't get caught. Of course those other people were not the ones that changed the world. It was the people like galileo that were punished for being wrong but never proved of being wrong that changed the world.

    Cheers
    gww
    Last edited by gww; 08-15-2018 at 07:36 PM.
    zone 5b

  7. #126
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by Qvox View Post
    ...

    Personally, the only reason I wouldn't do it is because after reading the research paper I realized that there was just too many unanswered questions...
    Which is why Richard Cryberg says what he says.
    Proverbs 16:24

  8. #127
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Cloverdale
    Which is why Richard Cryberg says what he says.
    Though richard has by his own admission in places, experimented with things out side of label approval though I am sure he knew the stuff he was working with and how to control it so that it was a safe experiment.

    Just saying.
    gww
    zone 5b

  9. #128
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Just for clarification of my last reply to this thread. I based my comment on my take of this comment by Richard on made on beeL and my reading of the label on oxalic.
    A year ago I did experiments where I fogged water solutions of oxalic acid. I did a treatment once a week for several weeks and found mite counts totally unaffected by the treatment. Treated hives had counts by an alcohol wash just as high as the untreated controls.

    I have also done some experiments testing what happens to ethanol when run thru a fogger. Fogger conditions are set up perfectly to cause the water gas reaction. Sure enough, I saw lots of evidence of some really ugly chemicals being produced from ethanol by passage thru the fogger. I sure as heck do not want those chemicals in my hives or showing up in my honey. I strongly suspect some of those ethanol decomposition products will be carcinogens. In fact it would be amazing if they are not. I saw enough without even adding any oxalic acid to the mix that I knew I would never use the process and never suggest anyone else should use it either.


    I also looked at potential explosion issues due to putting ethanol and ethanol decomposition products into the hive. I found you could get ignition, but the pressure produced was so low all you got was a bit of a "Whoosh" sound that did not lift the lid nor blow out the candle used inside the hive as an ignition source. Three ignitions over the course of a few minutes was only enough heat to mildly warm the plastic foundation in the hive.


    As there is a danger involved in honey contamination with unknown toxic organics produced by the water gas reaction and as no one has demonstrated that this application actually kills any mites I would suggest it is not very smart to use it. You are also breaking the law by introducing an unregistered formulation into your hive.


    Dick
    If I am interpreting something incorrectly with my previous statement, I apologize. It was an attempt to put things in perspective and not an attempt to change anything that is. My perspective was what I said and based on what I can see which I am willing to show so that it can be pointed out where I am wrong. I got a personal message saying I was making things up and maybe I am but if so, not on purpose. This is what I used to make my statement and I am not above an interpretation error but do my best to not make things up. I did not even post with ill will of any sort.
    I was just carrying on with my theme that most things get done or tried before people go though the hassle of getting permits and paying for test.

    That said, I do not feel that it is a wrong thing to experiment as long as it is done with the intention and mechanisms to do it in a way to do no harm to others.

    Cheers
    gww
    Last edited by gww; 08-16-2018 at 05:20 PM.
    zone 5b

  10. #129
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Update:
    My PHD Chemist was very interested in the subject, but came back quickly and reported that she couldn't work on LiCl as a miticide, it seems that a patent already exists. You can find it here: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2017042240A1/en

    Additionally, reading the patent application did indicate that the LiCl solution was deadly to open brood and therefore likely only useful as a treatment for package bees or late fall/early spring use.

    "Table 5 summarizes the results expressed as survival rate of larvae or pupae. All larvae were lost within 72 hours implicating a strong lethal effect of LiCl on larvae. Since 25 mM LiCl is tolerated by bees very well but larvae viability is crucially impacted already at 10 mM LiCl, it follows that LiCl should ideally be applied when egg laying is decreased. Such a phase naturally occurs between the calender start of summer6 and the overwintering period."

  11. #130
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    That isn't a Patent - it's a Patent Application. I'd be most surprised if it's approved, as this isn't an invention - it's a novel application of a chemical which already exists. If applications themselves could be patented, then there would be millions of patents already in existence for various computer programs. Find a novel use for (say) common table salt ... and then patent it ? I don't think so.

    But - even if a Patent were to be granted - how could it ever be policed/defended ? Lithium Chloride is freely available (if a tad expensive) - so anybody, anywhere can buy it, and for unspecified use.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  12. #131
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAceBees View Post
    My PHD Chemist was very interested in the subject, but came back quickly and reported that she couldn't work on LiCl as a miticide,
    Is LiCl also patented as a chemical for inducing brood break?

  13. #132
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    That isn't a Patent - it's a Patent Application. I'd be most surprised if it's approved, as this isn't an invention - it's a novel application of a chemical which already exists. If applications themselves could be patented, then there would be millions of patents already in existence for various computer programs. Find a novel use for (say) common table salt ... and then patent it ? I don't think so.

    But - even if a Patent were to be granted - how could it ever be policed/defended ? Lithium Chloride is freely available (if a tad expensive) - so anybody, anywhere can buy it, and for unspecified use.
    LJ
    Actually, most patents are for processes, not specific compounds/methods. Its trivial for competitors to come up with a slightly different compound that acts in the same fashion (e.g. another lithium salt); general methods are harder to overcome. Indeed, this patent covers not only LiCl, but also "An organic or inorganic salt of lithium for use in prophylactic and/or therapeutic treatment of Varroa destructor mite infestation of honey bees", and covers a range of application/treatment methods.

    To use your example of table salt, there are over 50 approved/active patents using table salt in a novel fashion.

    There is a very good chance this group will get this patent. Enforcement against individual beekeepers may be difficult (but easy against companies selling lithium salts), but the difficulty of enforcement has no bearing on whether a patent gets approved.

  14. #133
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    When I said "Find a novel use for (say) common table salt ... and then patent it ?" - By 'it' I was referring to the Table Salt itself. But then I suspect you knew that.

    Providing a substance has at least one other legitimate use, it's sale cannot reasonably be restricted. Oxalic Acid as a wood bleach is a good example. Ammonium Sulphamate (unapproved for use as a weed-killer within the EU - but still widely used as such) is another. And so I can't envisage restrictions on the sale of Lithium Salts any time soon.

    "Patent Applied For" is a good bluffing tool to keep naive competitors at bay, and you are quite correct to say that the difficulty of enforcement has no bearing on whether a patent gets approved, but it IS fundamental to whether adopting such a course of action is worthwhile or not. To apply for a Patent which cannot be enforced is a complete waste of time and money.

    The Patent system favours big businesses, who have deep pockets to safeguard their interests - but do nothing for those without the wherewithal to do so. Langstroth is perhaps the perfect example of this - attempting to defend his Patent cost him his apiary, his business, AND his health. He would have been far better-off not to have bothered.

    Contrary to popular belief, the Patent System does very little to promote innovation by offering affordable protection.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  15. #134
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Providing a substance has at least one other legitimate use, it's sale cannot reasonably be restricted.
    Its sale cannot be restricted - except for the use which is patented. Should a supply chemical sell LiCl knowing it will be for treatment of bees, than they are in violation of the patent and the patent holder can sue. These types of lawsuits are fairly common, and are almost always won by the patent holder. In theory, they could also sue beekeeps who get it from a non-bee supplier and then use it on their bees (although these kinds of actions are rare as the cost of pursuing the case is usually more than any penalties).


    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Oxalic Acid as a wood bleach is a good example. Ammonium Sulphamate (unapproved for use as a weed-killer within the EU - but still widely used as such) is another. And so I can't envisage restrictions on the sale of Lithium Salts any time soon.
    I think you are confused about what patents do and how they offer protection to the inventor/owner. They do not restrict sales of an item; they only limit where that item (or process) can be legally used. No sales restrictions/etc enter into the marketplace to protect the patent; rather, it is up to the patent holder to monitor for, and pursue violations. In some cases this amounts to a sales ban (e.g. if you've invented some sort of doo-hickey), but when it comes to multi-purpose items like chemicals, all a patent does is restrict where and how it can be used - not its sale.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    "Patent Applied For" is a good bluffing tool to keep naive competitors at bay, and you are quite correct to say that the difficulty of enforcement has no bearing on whether a patent gets approved, but it IS fundamental to whether adopting such a course of action is worthwhile or not. To apply for a Patent which cannot be enforced is a complete waste of time and money.
    And given that this patent has a good chance of being accepted, its hardly a waste of their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Contrary to popular belief, the Patent System does very little to promote innovation by offering affordable protection.
    LJ
    Having a number of patents myself, including two which I have pursued violators on, I have to disagree. Big businesses are loath to violate them, as patent courts tend to scale penalties to the size of the violator and size of the violation. Its simply cheaper for them to buy-out or licence the patent.
    Last edited by SuiGeneris; 01-29-2019 at 01:30 PM.

  16. #135
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    I tried

    I have 3 hives and i harvested 2 swarm that i decided to be my experimental subjetcs
    we have varroa mite since one year now i do operate on tropicalized 10 frames Langstroth (20cm deep)

    For hive #4 I was still below 10 falls/D but on hive #5 around 23/D
    I planned the following protocol, and you can tell me what you think about it.
    Counting mites falls over 48 hours before processing
    treatment 1g Li carbonate (27mmol) in one or two spoons of cider vinegar and then in 1 litre of syrup.
    Counting on 72 hours then counting again on 48 hours and finally counting on 48 hours 14 days later.

    Here is what I have observed this week.
    So I first did a 48-hour count.
    hive #5 i observed 12/D (24 in 48 hours)
    hive #4 it was at 13/D (26 in 48 hours)
    I processed hive #5 first on the same day after the 1st count.
    Then I treated hive #4 with a 2-day delay as a precaution.
    3 days after treatment (over 3 days)
    I counted 262 falls on hive #5 and 73 on hive #4
    I was able to do a 2nd count of 150 falls on hive #5 between the 3rd and 5th day after treatment so over 48 hours.
    I couldn't do it on hive #4 because of the 2-day delay.

    no particular bee over mortality

  17. #136
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by DocBB View Post
    I tried

    I have 3 hives and i harvested 2 swarm that i decided to be my experimental subjetcs
    we have varroa mite since one year now i do operate on tropicalized 10 frames Langstroth (20cm deep)
    Without a control population, this is not science.

  18. #137
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    Default Re: Lithium chloride as miticide

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Without a control population, this is not science.
    I don’t think the OP claimed he was a scientist simply a beekeeper sharing an experience that he thought others might find interesting.

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