Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied - Page 2
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  1. #21

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post

    Juhani,
    He ( and I) is wondering why you do not try to contact Hans-Otto yourself if you want the informations..
    I donīt have contact information to Hans Otto Johnsen. I barely remembered his name.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post

    Why always talking behind backs? Is it still the small cells?

    I canīt believe you all in scandinavia are not co-workers having the same goal, treatment free bees.




    Talking behind back?? Are you serious?? Writing in a free Internet forum is, to me, NOT talking behind backs.



    Who is the beekeeper in the Norwegian study? I would be the first to write him, and maybe visit as well, if I only knew who he is.

    Erik does not know. You donīt know. I donīt know.

    With this thread Iīm trying to find out who he is.



    Today Iīm one step further in this process. The beekeeper of the Norwegian study is not Hans Otto Johnsen.

    This much we know now:
    "Regarding the resistant bees, our cooperating beekeeper do use 4.9mm cells have some 200 colonies and cooperates with several other beekeepers for breeding (amongst them Hans Otto Johnsen which again cooperates with Erik Østerlund).

    To be honest I don't know if cell size is a part of the story. Regarding the literature it is most likely not.

    The bees are not super gentle, but can be easily handled with veil and gloves. They are productive and build strong colonies that are good honey producers. They are a mixture of different breeds, but not as yellow as many buckfast breeds.

    The beekeepers quit treatment in the late 1990ties and experienced some years with higher losses. However, he did select on surviving colonies and he also challenged the bees with the common small black ants and observed their behavior. Aggressiveness towards the ants was also a selection criteria for some years.

    I have taken a lot of bee samples from his colonies and mite levels stay rather low, but this fall I sampled some colonies with at least 10 mites/100 bees. Winter losses are minimal, less than 5% and usually not related to varroa.

    His apiaries are not isolated, though he use to mate his queens centrally in his area where his bees probably dominates the drone population."



    This information comes from Norway. But they refuse to release his name.

    Mystery continues.

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  3. #22
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    have you already written the authors of the paper, provided your contact info, and requested they ask the norwegianbeekeeper to contact you juhani?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #23

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    In the end I will do so. (pm to you squarepeg)

  5. #24
    Join Date
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Translation often loses it's context. Double translation triples the risk.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  6. #25

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    The beekeeper in this Norwegian study is Terje Reinertsen.



    I phoned him and asked if it is all right to publish his name.

  7. #26

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    The beekeeper in this Norwegian study is Terje Reinertsen.



    I phoned him and asked if it is all right to publish his name.

  8. #27

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Boy I love this moment, this is so great news.

    Terje Reinertsen from Norway has done something which has long been questioned if it is possible at all. He has done a miracle!

    It has now been scientifically proven that a beekeeper with only 200 hives in less than 20 years time with simple breeding methods and with no isolation to other beekeepers has come up with a bee stock that is varroa resistant.

    -in less than 20 years time
    -no isolation
    -free mating
    -no fancy difficult breeding methods
    -bees are easily workable, build strong colonies and make good honecrops
    -infestation levels remain low
    -no AHB genes
    -scientifically proven

    Is this first time ever?

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Cos of translation issues I haven't read the paper, but could you give a run down on how he did this? Including what breeds he is using, and what level of varroa are now in the hives?

    Are there plans to share these bees around?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  10. #29

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Juhani:
    I just studied the article and your posts and website again and have some questions:

    -
    His apiaries are not isolated, though he use to mate his queens centrally in his area where his bees probably dominates the drone population."
    Can you be a little bit specific on that? Are the queens bred isolated from other drones or not?

    - Did you yourself ever tried AHB? Didnīt you say once you used bees from Columbia?

    - The stock in the test was from different breeds, are african bees used ( like mine, monticola) ? You seem to know so much about Terjes bees.

  11. #30

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Cos of translation issues I haven't read the paper, but could you give a run down on how he did this? Including what breeds he is using, and what level of varroa are now in the hives?

    Are there plans to share these bees around?
    It is all in English:

    https://peerj.com/articles/3956/

    I would not know about Terjes plans, just phoned him today for the first time.

  12. #31

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Juhani:
    I just studied the article and your posts and website again and have some questions:

    -
    Can you be a little bit specific on that? .
    I have shared with you all information I have.

    I had one Colombian queen back in 1996(if I remember year right). Great breeder. As gentle as my other bees.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Thanks Juhani I had clicked a wrong link.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    "The overall average mite reproductive success in surviving colonies was significantly reduced at 0.87 offspring per foundress whereas in susceptible colonies it was 1.24."

    Very impressive! The same mechanism found by Le Conte in french bees populations.
    Thanks Juhani for the link and your effort!
    Last edited by Eduardo Gomes; 10-30-2017 at 04:42 PM.

  15. #34
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    Default

    excellent thread juhani. many thanks for bringing this information to the forum.

    if terjes is english speaking by all means invite him to join this community. if he has the time and is so inclined we would love to hear more about what he is doing.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #35

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    excellent thread juhani. many thanks for bringing this information to the forum.

    if terjes is english speaking by all means invite him to join this community. if he has the time and is so inclined we would love to hear more about what he is doing.
    That would be great! I would like to know about the stock he used and the cell size.

  17. #36

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    That would be great! I would like to know about the stock he used and the cell size.
    I allready wrote he uses 4,9 mm (post 21).

  18. #37

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Sorry Juhani.
    I only wanted to have this confirmed by the source. I apologize.

  19. #38

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Here is some more information, direct from Terje:

    Terje Reinertsen found varroa in his hives 1993. He treated for two years with formic acid. Results were not good, winter losses were big. After serious thinking he decided to stop treatments. He started to take closer look at his hives. He monitored their behaviour and number of mites. He discovered there were huge differencies in number of mites between hives, although they were standing nearby each other. The surviving hives with lower mite numbers were used in breeding. Besides mites he found out that some queens had huge egg laying capasity, more than 2500 eggs per day. He changed to small 4,9mm cells in year 2002. He will tell more about his breeding methods later.


    I wrote earlier; "no fancy breeding method were used". With this I meant difficult methods like counting VSH factor, which requires several hundred cells opened and looked with microscope. My words were because I at that point had only read the words of Melissa Oddie. Oddie writes in the last words of the study: "... that European honey bee subspecies can indeed develop traits to overcome extreme V. destructor infestations by means of natural selection."

    To me these words of Oddie underestimate what Terje Reinertsen has done. It is not natural selection only. There is definitely selective breeding work behind his success.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 10-31-2017 at 06:48 AM. Reason: spelling

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I donīt have contact information to Hans Otto Johnsen. I barely remembered his name.






    .
    Hans Otto Johnsen
    (address removed pending permission)
    Last edited by squarepeg; 11-06-2017 at 04:10 AM. Reason: per teplov

  21. #40

    Default Re: Treatment-Free Beekeeping in Norway scientifically studied

    Oddie writes:


    "Since only susceptible donor brood was used for our experiments in both surviving and susceptible host colonies, any traits of immature bees can safely be excluded to explain our data. For example, changes in brood volatiles (Nazzi & Le Conte, 2016) are not a factor in the results obtained. "

    I think a big mistake is made here.

    Although the brood frames come from another source, susceptible host colonies, is is well possible that volatile combounds is the key factor.

    Hives with heavy mite loads were selected as donors of brood frames. This is understandable, it makes counting VSH factor and finding possible differencies easier. BUT: Mites can affect the larvae infested in such a way that special kind of volatiles start to form. These volatiles are detected by the surviving group but remanin undetected by the susceptible group.

    Of course she means the genes(of bee larvae) are similar in both groups, but the conclusion that " changes in brood volatiles (Nazzi & Le Conte, 2016) are not a factor in the results obtained. " is not right.

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