What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?
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  1. #1
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    Default What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Hi again everyone!

    Ok, first, a little history...

    I have been so darn busy I have not been able to get into my hives for over one full month with the exception of OA vapor maybe 3 weeks ago [and yes, I know I was suppose to vaporize the OA every 5 days, simply could not find the time].

    Fast forward to today...

    Opened up the first 3 hives and found large amounts of honey [supers are completely full]. I was not expecting to find lots of honey. In fact, I was thinking there was only gonna be 1-3 frames of honey per hive. But hives that are three boxes deep, have 1+ full super of honey in them.

    I would like to apply Apivar in every hive. But the instructions clearly state: "Remove supers BEFORE you install the Apivar strips!"

    So, my million dollar question:

    What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Can I simply store the supers for 42 days and then reinstall them on the hives after I remove the Apivar?

    Finally, why do they say, do not install Apivar when the honey supers are on? Is it because the chemical can/will contaminate the honey?

    Please help me out if you can because I really do need to apply the Apivar ASAP!

    Thank you again!

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    I think you can treat with oxalic acid vapor with supers on. But not Apivar

    If you remove supers from the hive for 42 days you can store in a freezer (that honey was for the bees anyway) or wrap in contractor bags or shrink wrap and put a CO2 hose in the wrap on top of the honey, (outdoors so you don't die) I used a 20 lb CO2 tank to protect honey before but 42 days is a LONG time. that's a lot of CO2.

    Or do 2 days with super in freezer, shrinkwrapped, then remove and store indoors somewhere still shrink wrapped. Takes 2 days to kill shb that will surely ruin that honey

    That being said, I have never used apivar, hopefully someone else will step up
    Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Thanks Gypsi!

    Ok, anyone else have any good advice for us?

    Please help us if you can.

    Thank you!

  5. #4
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    I usually eat honey.
    To eat or leave the honey is up to you. I am thinking in CA you can still feed. If so the choice is yours (if they have drawn comb to put stores in).

    *** Added, after seeing fiveJ's comments ***
    Do NOT eat if you *did* treat with supers on. I did not see that anywhere in your post, but fivej is right about his warnings.
    Last edited by MikeJ; 10-15-2017 at 09:03 PM. Reason: adding warning

  6. #5
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    You CAN NOT use OA with supers on. You can isolate them like some do, but it is not recommended. If you had your supers on when you did your first OAV, I would put them back on after Apivar and let them eat it over winter. J

  7. #6
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    If these are the real clover honey, I would extract them all. Then feed back the syrup for them to
    overwinter in. Comparing the price of real honey with syrup it is a no brainer.

    With the syrup on you can still treat with oav or apivar but don't forget to mark these frames so that
    they will not be mixed in with the real honey next Spring. The usual is extract then feed back the syrup so they
    can cap the syrup for winter feeding. Too bad you don't have the time to do so!
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  8. #7
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsi View Post
    I think you can treat with oxalic acid vapor with supers on.
    incorrect - a violation of the label

  9. #8
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    You mentioned that you opened up "the first 3 hives", so we don't know how many hives you have. You can stack the supers on another hive and then treat the ones without supers. Other options are extraction or let them get robbed out. If you're running deeps you can get enough nectar or sugar syrup in there to overwinter. Depending on numbers, freezing or storing isn't an option for most. I run double-deeps for brood and mediums for supers, so consequently never treat with a medium box on, and I never have mediums on over winter. That way you don't have to "mark" or try to remember which supers were on while you treated.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    having a plan before you started would have been a good idea, either pull and extract or leave them on for the winter, I would pull and extract myself

  11. #10
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    If you leave them on there will be lots of empty hive space during this arctic chills before the
    Spring time. This is also the time that the bees starting to brood up in late-Jan. Over here you want a
    tight brood nest going into winter to keep everything warm and cozy inside. I will be turning on my 14 watt
    heat pads for them all winter long.

    Because we have no SHB and lots of wax moths they will get in on these comb. If you have mice then they
    could get in too and damage the comb. I already extracted and took my precious drawn comb inside. Besides it is
    fun during the early Spring time to give these drawn comb back after individual hive assessment for the expansion.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  12. #11
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    Thumbs Up Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    I say you take all the honey and not worry about treating. Sell all that honey and buy you 3 new hives next year.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Honey Householder View Post
    I say you take all the honey and not worry about treating. Sell all that honey and buy you 3 new hives next year.


  14. #13
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    I say keep all the honey for the Holidays gift. Give them the loose sugar or sugar bricks all winter
    long. Like last year give them plenty of syrup. The surviving hives you can make splits again like
    this year. Every year it is the same process with beekeeping once you have a workable process down.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  15. #14
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    The honey house holder suggestion would not be bad to me. If you get behind and things happen then sometimes you make the best of it.

    I also saw the comment that using oa with the supers on or dribble with the supers on is a violation of the law.

    I don't question that it is a violation but for ten years it was also a voilation to even use oa but it didn't stop any one cause it worked. I personaly would not be uncomfortable of treating with oa vapor or oa dribble even with the supers on.

    I would base this on a 3 year swiss study that it does not elavate olixic levels in the honey and the fact that randy oliver has made it part of his partition to get the shop towel method allowed with supers and it has not been through the process yet.

    It being against the law would not weigh on my consience too much more then it would if I treated some of my plants with dish soap and baking soda cause I know it works and yet know using it to kill bugs is against the law. I have a warre hive that might be against the law.

    If I had not seen the study that is good enough for me, I might not do it but the law would have nothing to do with it, safety would.Some also just put a peice of sign board between the honey while they gas the hive and then remove it when the gas clears.

    There are a couple of threads on both just taking the honey and buying new bees or treating with olixic with honey on the hives and most of them were long enough to show differring views on these things.

    Just like there are lots of threads to have your treatment done in aug so your fat bees are good, however there are times when you have to work from where you are and not worry about what could have been. Happens to every one at one time or another.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  16. #15
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    (not to change topics....but)
    If someone sells honey - to treat a hive either with an illegal substance or a legal substance in an illegal way can lead to very bad results (or good depending on which side of the transaction you are on).
    When we provide food for others - it falls on us to go even further than simply obeying the laws.

    Generally we are already liable for damages (that is why there is liability insurance). If we purposely break laws and neglected safety precautions we have gone beyond being just liable and entered criminality - which goes beyond fines.


  17. #16
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Mike
    You only have touble if something goes wrong. If it has been studied and when tested it can not be shown that the honey is any differrent in any way then all honey, then there is nothing to be liable for. If the bees from my warre go to my neibor and sting them and they sue me, the liability will not be because my bees were kept in an illegal hive but because a neibor got stung. What you say has merrit if if affects something or can be measured in something.

    Every single person that used olixic before it got approved was selling thier stuff and every person that currently buys wood bleach instead of getting the exact same thing in a properly labled container is breaking the same law. Laws are there for a reason but comon sence still rules in the end.

    Everything that is eventually aproved has to be tried before it was aproved. Poeple were trying olixic before it was aproved and that is what generated it being worth testing to seek aproval.

    Now there are things to look at and at some point if someone sees a way to make money from it, they will take those studies and pay what it takes to get it approved. Of course if it works and everybody can use it cheaply enough that the person could never regain his money it took to get it aproved, then he would not spend that money.

    Just because it is not worth spending the money to get it approved does not mean that it does not work.

    So if you trust the people that studied it that came to the conclusion that with three years of mutiple treatments that no residue is left in the comb or honey that is measureble, then even if you did treat and sold the honey, they could not test that honey and find it. I doubt very much that libility is a factor.

    Just like my warre will be no factor unless thier is a big out break of american foul brood and then they may decide they want to enforce me changing the hive.

    On the one hand, of course it is criminality on the other hand, it is no secret to the gov that people spray thier garden with home stuff and that they have fixed frame hives just like they know for a fact that most drivers are criminals cause they porposly drive 5 miles over the speed limit and don't stop them.

    It may be a perposeful criminal act to drive 5 miles over the speed limit but when I taught my daugters to drive, it was the very first thing that I taught them cause driving too slow is more dangerous then driving normal and normal has less chance of cause road rage from the guy behind you as well as being normal.

    Yes, there is a line that is too far but these things above don't cross it.
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps If your bees are dead you don't have to worry about them making anything to sell libility wise.
    zone 5b

  18. #17
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Mike
    You only have touble if something goes wrong. If it has been studied and when tested it can not be shown that the honey is any differrent in any way then all honey, then there is nothing to be liable for. If the bees from my warre go to my neibor and sting them and they sue me, the liability will not be because my bees were kept in an illegal hive but because a neibor got stung....
    Cheers
    gww
    Ps If your bees are dead you don't have to worry about them making anything to sell libility wise.
    I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do - I'm just pointing out the possible consequences.

    If something goes bad and my bees hurt a neighbor - if I'm all legal, then at least I am only as liable as non-criminal action can go... On the other hand - if I was illegally then all kinds of consequences for criminal behavior are possible.

    That's my only point.
    Yes - I agree, from experience, dead bees cause very little trouble lol.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Mike
    In my experiance the laws usually don't decide what is legal or illegal but it is dicided more by which lawyer is best and who has enough money to extend the proceeding till the other can not afford to go on.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  20. #19
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Mike
    In my experiance the laws usually don't decide what is legal or illegal but it is dicided more by which lawyer is best and who has enough money to extend the proceeding till the other can not afford to go on.
    Cheers
    gww
    When it comes to monetary awards, it is the jury that decides. A good lawyer would only have to prove that you sold contaminated product and that you knew or should have known it was contaminated. Said lawyer would not even have to show that the damage (illness) was caused by the honey. Break out the checkbook. To heck with the criminal charges, it is the civil lawsuit that will get you!
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: What shall I do with all the honey and how much should I leave in the hives?

    jw
    When it comes to monetary awards, it is the jury that decides. A good lawyer would only have to prove that you sold contaminated product and that you knew or should have known it was contaminated. Said lawyer would not even have to show that the damage (illness) was caused by the honey. Break out the checkbook. To heck with the criminal charges, it is the civil lawsuit that will get you!
    You would not have to do anything at all and a good lawyer might get a jury to award something. I don't believe that honey that can be tested and it comes out pure honey gives any edge to the case for them.

    If a person wanted to live in fear of everything bad that might happen to them they should stay away from all people cause some one with ill will can cause trouble and right and wrong may have very little to do with it. That is why trespassors that have fell out of trees still sue the owner of the land he was trespassing on. That risk will always be there. However most people live with good common sense and don't have those problims. On the other side OJ was found innocent. That is what jurys do. So in the end we are still looking how many people drive 5 miles over the speed limmit and will not have a problim due to it.
    Just to put a differrent perspective on it. Do you think that they just changed the MO law on selling honey to where you can sell up to a dollar amount and still be considered cottage industery and not have a professional processing place and not just have to sell from your home because the law was too strict or because nobody was listining to it any way and so they changed it to reflect what was really happening?

    I say everybody was breaking the law and they changed the law rather then inforce it cause inforcing it hurt more people than the people who were breaking the law were hurting.

    That is the same reason olixic is legal now cause every one was using it and it worked.

    I guess in the end it comes down to your view of how things are changed in america.

    I say just every once in a while common sense and no harm caused wins and so I don't live in fear as long as I know I cause no harm.

    Cheers
    gww
    Last edited by gww; 10-16-2017 at 11:17 PM.
    zone 5b

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