Treatment free queens - Page 2
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 126
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by ruthiesbees View Post
    I bought 2 from Beeweaver in TX this spring. Only one was accepted. That mama was too hot for my no-smoker operation.
    Give them a call. Let them know the queen was too hot. They have a discretionary replacement policy for hot queens.

    About 5 years ago I got a couple queens from them and one was hot. If I went near their hive with a weedwacker, they'd chase me a clear 100+ yards away. I emailed them letting them know the laying pattern was fantastic, but I couldn't deal with the heat. They replaced the hot queen with a suggestion "not to go near the hive with a weedwacker." Not that I followed the suggestion.

    Bought bees 4 out of the last 5 years from them and haven't had the issue repeat itself since. Although one BeeWeaver hive of mine was a little testy last night, but so were about 6 others

    They stand by their product.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Weston, ME
    Posts
    1,016

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    If there was such a thing - wouldn't everyone be using them?
    In my opinion - if a "treatment free" queen can not be taken out of the seller's hive and put into the buyer's hive and still act as a tf queen - there is no product there.

    If treatment free means the queen produces bees that do not need to receive any form of treatments to help them overcome parasites/viruses - then the buyer should not need to do this either.

    A disclaimer that the TF queen may not work for the seller because of hive configuration/methods are (IMO) covers to get out of having to admit that a TF queen actually is not. If the seller really has a queen that produces bees that do not need any treatment - then the buyer also should get the same results without any treatment.

    There was a discussion a bit ago in which I admitted that a "guarantee" from the seller was not reasonable - but I do say that unless a tf queen performs as tf when the hive is changed - it is not a product. The buyer and seller would have to work out some agreeable method between themselves as to how to handle it.

    In the end, just as a seller can't really guarantee a queen to a buyer - the buyer really has no reason (with such disclaimers) to believe the tf queen is really nothing more than a fluke for that seller's hive.

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    If treatment free means the queen produces bees that do not need to receive any form of treatments to help them overcome parasites/viruses - then the buyer should not need to do this either.
    says you.

    what i say is that describing queens raised in apiaries managed off treatments as 'treatment free' is an accurate description of what they are, no more or no less.

    your statement quoted above comes with an underlying assumption that the queen's dna is the one and only factor that determines how a colony overcomes parasites and viruses...

    and tends to ignore the many other factors, not all of which are fully understood at this point, such as nutrition, weather, management techniques, the nature of and exposure to whatever local bee population is present, ect.

    making such pronouncement is just as inaccurate and misleading as a seller of treatment free queens giving a 100% guarantee there will be no problems with parasites and viruses.

    jmho, but as with many issues this is an evolving one in with which the truth will be found somewhere in the middle of the extreme positions.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    what i say is that describing queens raised in apiaries managed off treatments as 'treatment free' is an accurate description of what they are, no more or no less.
    But is that how they are typically advertised or promoted? As bees raised off treatments? Or as "TF bees"?

    When was the last time you saw an ad, post, or communication that said "Queens Raised in Apiaries Managed Off Treatments For Sale." Or "Queens Raised Without The Use of Treatments For Sale." I don't know that I ever have. Instead, I see posts such as "Treatment Free Queens for Sale" or "TF Queens Available" (such as this one https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ueens-for-sale). No further information is provided, whatsoever, either as a disclaimer that what worked for them may or may not work for you, or that several factors are involved other than genetics. In fact, there is typically no "description" at all.

    Take Mike Bush's post for instance, as its the only active one in the For Sale section that promotes TF Queens. The sole link provided goes to: http://bushfarms.com/beesqueens.htm. It gives detailed information about shipping times, price, and provides pictures. But as far as management, it just talks about genetics being acquired from "feral swarms."

    And that isn't a dig at Mike. That's how I always see the ads. "Our genetics have been treatment free since ____." But nothing else about location, management, nutrition, local population . . . no underlying "description" at all! In order to find that information, you have to dig DEEP. Several hours some times. I've bought bees for years from BeeWeaver, and I love their stock, but their information is no different. Their website says:

    "Bee Weaver queens have been selected for genetic resistance to Varroa mites and bee viruses. Our hardy BeeWeaver breed builds huge hives full of honey and bees - with no need for any other mite controls."

    The natural, and logical conclusion the consumer should draw is that they are TF, and if I buy them I will get TF bees.

    In any situation, when the fine print is difficult to find and takes extensive research, there is usually a reason why. I find it harder to find the fine print on Snake Oil than I do on Tylenol. Just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    jmho, but as with many issues this is an evolving one in with which the truth will be found somewhere in the middle of the extreme positions.
    Truer words may not have ever been spoken.

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,365

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    TF queens? TF queens?
    I'm still looking for beekeeper resistant queens for sale.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  7. #26

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    You US people are smiled upon by fate.
    Here you could name a queen a tf queen if she and her colony lives for one season and one winter into next season. No matter if bred or surviving mutt.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Weston, ME
    Posts
    1,016

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    says you.
    ...
    hhmmm? Yep - that is why my nick is above those words

    It seems to me (not trying to put anyone down) when many tf sellers are advertising the "treatment free" is spoken of as if it is a product (i.e. not an environment). Then if it comes to questions about the queens' abilities it becomes the environment in which they were raised.

    I (personally) do not see paying for a queen raised in a treatment free environment - if in my hive I have to treat to keep her alive. I can get those queens from anywhere.

  9. #28

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post

    I (personally) do not see paying for a queen raised in a treatment free environment
    And I do see that I will do exactly that and then try to adapt the descendants to my locale.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,460

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    just remember P = G+E + G x E.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    But is that how they are typically advertised or promoted?
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    when many tf sellers are advertising the "treatment free" is spoken of as if it is a product
    (bold and italics mine)

    typically? many? how typical and how many?

    i must admit i am not privy to these typical and numerous sellers. perhaps you guys could share some real life examples with us.

    the only advertiser of treatment free queens that i am even aware of is michael bush here on this forum and his listing contains no audacious claims. the only thing a potential buyer can infer is that these queens were 'produced' under treatment free management.

    how are they not a product?

    i mean no offense to anyone either mike. i would be irritated as well if i became aware of someone trying to take advantage of the naive by misrepresenting what they are selling...

    but to date i have not observed that happening.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #31

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Yes I hope GEI will work to my advantage.

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    (bold and italics mine)

    typically? many? how typical and how many?

    i must admit i am not privy to these typical and numerous sellers. perhaps you guys could share some real life examples with us.
    First, you're parcing words and I think you know it. Not really productive to the conversation.

    Second, I gave two examples in my above post, that were situations off the top of my head. If you want me to dig further, I would bet I could come up with 5 more examples in about 15 minutes of internet research. Or you could google it yourself and give me 2 situations where I'm wrong and we can call it even.

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Screw it, here's 4 examples I found between the last post and this one by googling "tf queens for sale":

    1. http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/node/17210 (advertises "tf queens" and "survivor stock" by describing the genetics, but does nothing to outline management or environment).

    2. http://forum.tfbees.net/viewtopic.php?t=535 (an ad posted for "tf queens" with no mention to management or environment).

    3. http://parkerbees.com/products.html (selling "100% treatment free" without any definition or suggestion to management or environment).

    4. http://www.pleasedbees.com/naturally...bees-for-sale/ (indicating that "my bees have been treatment free since 2009" without going into anything about management or environment)

    Not a single one of those results (first page of google) gives any indication that the treatment free status is dependent on hive configuration, geographic location, environment, or management. Some talk about genetics. Others don't talk about anything. Not one single person gives any statement even close to something that can be read as "queens raised in apiaries managed off treatments as 'treatment free'."

    Disclaimer: I know nothing about any of these people's bees. I did a 10 second internet search, and I am in no way disparaging any of these producers. Their names were used as an example of the information posted by people selling tf queens and is NOT, in anyway, an attempt to make any comment on the quality of their products.

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Suffolk Co, NY, USA
    Posts
    3,626

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    (bold and italics mine)

    typically? many? how typical and how many?

    i must admit i am not privy to these typical and numerous sellers. perhaps you guys could share some real life examples with us.

    the only advertiser of treatment free queens that i am even aware of is michael bush here on this forum and his listing contains no audacious claims. the only thing a potential buyer can infer is that these queens were 'produced' under treatment free management.

    how are they not a product?

    i mean no offense to anyone either mike. i would be irritated as well if i became aware of someone trying to take advantage of the naive by misrepresenting what they are selling...

    but to date i have not observed that happening.
    Come on squarepeg, you've been around here long enough to have read all of the mumbo jumbo about tf queens that everyone else has read.
    Lets be real.

    Why not fully address this claim as posted above:
    "It seems to me (not trying to put anyone down) when many tf sellers are advertising the "treatment free" is spoken of as if it is a product (i.e. not an environment). Then if it comes to questions about the queens' abilities it becomes the environment in which they were raised.

    I (personally) do not see paying for a queen raised in a treatment free environment - if in my hive I have to treat to keep her alive. I can get those queens from anywhere."
    Last edited by clyderoad; 10-06-2017 at 01:44 PM. Reason: spelling

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post
    As bees raised off treatments? Or as "TF bees"?
    i think you are correct in that it comes down to a parsing of words.

    my pushback to mike is mostly because in my view he sets an arbitrary bar for tf sellers with respect to what a buyer should expect in terms of outcomes once the bees are brought home.

    none of the advertisers you linked above make any claims in that regard nor should they.

    however with so much left to be understood about whether there is something special about certain bees or whether other factors at play are more important the points you all make here are well taken.

    at the same time if an buyer has an interest in acquiring bees demonstrating success off treatments, and if the seller is representing his experience with the stock in an honest way, who are we to say there is something untoward about it?

    do i have tf bees? you betcha. no mumbo jumbo clyde.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    at the same time if an buyer has an interest in acquiring bees demonstrating success off treatments, and if the seller is representing his experience with the stock in an honest way, who are we to say there is something untoward about it?
    But that's the whole point. No one is saying "I have experience demonstrating success with bees off treatments." They say I have "treatment free bees." The difference is substantial.

    Take BeeWeaver's website for instance:

    "Our hardy BeeWeaver breed builds huge hives full of honey and bees - with no need for any other mite controls."


    Did they say only that "we don't use treatments and our bees are healthy" or instead do they imply that their bees don't need mite controls?

    Is that statement ambiguous? I don't think so. I think it states that their bees don't need mite controls. Is that true? Not really. It depends on a number of other factors.

    To put it another way, if I bought a can of spray paint at a home improvement store that said the color was blue, I take it home and spray something and the color comes out green. I take it back to the store and say I want to return it because I was told it was blue and it wasn't, do you think they'd give me my money back, or do you think they'd get in a philosophical argument about "well, the color your observing depends on the available spectrum of the light imposed on the color, so in certain environments the paint may be viewed more blue than green, but not necessarily in all environments, so sometimes it is green although it isn't always, and we don't feel the need to tell customers that because the environment really plays such a larger role in the color of the paint than the paint actually does." Probably not.

    So why is the treatment free world any different? Why would you sell a queen as "treatment free", have the customer take it home, have it overridden by mites, only to have the seller later tell the customer "well, it's actually more about management and environment than it is about the genetics of the queen, and I didn't guarantee anything when you think about it, and actually I really just sold you a queen that was raised in a treatment free environment rather than a queen that is guaranteed to be treatment free herself, regardless of the fact that what was sold was called a treatment free queen."

    Seems rather ridiculous.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post

    Take BeeWeaver's website for instance:

    "Our hardy BeeWeaver breed builds huge hives full of honey and bees - with no need for any other mite controls."
    not good. also from their site:

    "BeeWeaver bees and queens don’t just survive Varroa mites, BeeWeaver colonies thrive in the face of Varroa infestation. BeeWeaver bees free the beekeeper from the constant struggle to test Varroa mite populations and then suppress the mites with chemicals or other control measures."

    which is even worse.

    my first time to see this sk. i certainly wouldn't promote my bees like that and i'll stand in agreement with you guys on this. that kind of marketing should raise eyebrows.

    to the best of my recollection we have had somewhat mixed reviews with respect to beeweaver stock here on the forum, not all bad.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,012

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Specialk....

    Some reasons a person might buy a queen.
    Chalk brood, EFB.

    You would be looking for suggestions of queens that fight these.

    tracial mite.
    You would be looking for queens that fight these.

    Honey production
    You would be looking for queens that improve yours.

    Swaming
    If you had a lot of swarming you would be looking to buy queens that were not prone to this.

    Not one of those queen sellers are going to throw in lessons so that you can maximize what that queen can do for you.

    None of the above reasons are going to give you a garrentee in your hive that the reason you are buying a queen for will happen in you hive.

    Why is it that for everything that a person can buy a queen for will have no garantee more will have a track record to look at but a treatment free has to meet a higher standard or is considered bad.

    That is unfair and if somebody sold you one but had to come manage your hive for you to prove the benifit, you couldn't afford the queen. Nobody else is held to that standard when you buy queens for those other reason you might buy one.

    Most of the queen sells are probly by word of mouth. A guy was getting 50 lbs of honey and he bought a queen that was proven to be a good producer and now he gets 100 lbs and so he says to his friend, hey I got 100 lbs. His friend says, I only got 50 what did you do. He says I bought this queen.

    The chain of events is:
    1. I want more honey (the guy that has found treatments are working really well for him is not going to want treatment free very bad)

    2. What should I do? I know this guys queens are suppose to be ok.

    3. you take a chance with no garantee and it either works or it doesn't. If it works you blame it on the queen because that is what you changed.

    4. You get 100 lbs of honey and so you blame it on the queen and tell you friends what you did.

    The person selling you that queen is not going to garantee what you will get. He will garrentee that if you come to his yard and then look at others around him that he gets more honey. If your bred in your own yard, you pick from the queens that impress you to breed from.

    So if you were successful like square peg in not treating and you were advising a new bee keeper who is going to be treatment free, you might say to that new bee keeper that he might be better catching a swarm from a bee tree that has been there for awhile or buy one from someone who has been having success. If you are like specialk... or richard cryberg or a couple of others who tried it and did not have success, they will proby advise, hey don't try that cause it doesn't always work like advertized.

    There is not one queen seller who is promoting his queens that is not doing all his testing in his own yard. And that means for any reason he is proud of his queens wether due to production or lack of swam erge.

    What makes a person think that a treatment free queen will be differrent. The guy selling it knows it works and probly works better then some southern package that is made with bees that are treated or package that was shaken out after almounds.

    So testing in the own guys yard is good enough for every other thing you buy a queen for but not for a treatment free. How many treatment queens give you a garantee that your hive won't die if you treat? How many say hey, if you buy my queen and treat your hive won't die. I will tell you how many, None. Speacial, they make the same sales pitch for thier queens but how many give you a garrentee. You know who give the garantee? The people who have tried them. So if 50 percent of those that try bee weever queens give good reviews and 50 percent of those that try them have hives die, how is that differrent then the national average of hive deaths per year? It is pretty close some years. If you went back to trying to be treatment free, would you start with a Georgia package or a treatment free queen. Since niether one will have a garantee, which one would you take a chance on if your goal was to do it again. If your goal is not to do it again then it is kinda wrong to be telling those that are doing it or going to do it that a queen is bad cause their is no garantee.

    There is no garantee in beekeeping if you look at the whole picture. There is no garentee that next year will produce as much as this year did in your own location.

    I just think it is wrong to say that one has to give a garantee and the rest don't. Now he should tell the truth of what is happening in his yard and not sneak sugar into his honey to get big numbers or sneak treatment to his hives if treatment free but both will be judged by thier numbers and be given referals by others who try them.

    It is wrong to call something bad cause you hold it to a higher standard then the other things that queens are also claimed to help.

    I still think you comunicate information better then most people I know and you probly can't even read my post.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Why is it that for everything that a person can buy a queen for will have no garantee more will have a track record to look at but a treatment free has to meet a higher standard or is considered bad.
    I never said a TF queen needed to come with a guarantee.

    But lets just compare two different qualities that you brought up: honey production and treatment free.

    How are "honey production" queens sold? They're labeled as "XYZ Apiaries Queen" and in the description they state "we select for honey production." That's it. They don't hold their queens out to do anything in particular. They don't call their queens "100 lb. Hive Queens" or "Maximum Honey Production Queens" with little or no explanation. They just state that honey production is something they select for in their breeding. If I bought a "100 lb. Hive Queen" I'd expect to get 100 lbs of honey. That's what it's called.

    How are "treatment free" queens sold? They are labeled as "Treatment Free Queens" and (many) are not given any description on what that means. Many aren't calling them "XYZ Queens" and saying "we select for mite resistance" (although some are, but usually those aren't labeled as "treatment free queens"). Instead, all they tell you is "Treatment Free Queens." As a consumer, without any other explanation or description, what should I expect? I should expect it is what it says it is, that I'll have Treatment Free Queens.

    When you hold your product out with a very particular name or to perform a particular action, it's an implied warranty that the product will perform according to that particular action. If it can't, don't hold it out that way.

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,012

    Default Re: Treatment free queens

    Specialk
    [QUOTE]
    The term "breeder queen" has different meanings to different people, and thus different price tags associated.

    To some, a breeder queen is an unproven, untested new queen from the breeder's most desirable genetics. In other words, a good place to start in breeding. Generally, these aren't that expensive, and usually run around the same price as a good "average" queen.

    To some, a breeder queen is a proven, tested, monitored queen from the breeder's most desirable genetics. Usually, it's the first category that is put in a nuc or hive and allowed to lay a few rounds, or a few months of rounds, while the breeder judges her laying ability and (hopefully) offspring to ensure the desired traits are being passed on. Generally, these are more expensive. A few hundred dollars+.

    To some, a breeder queen is an Artificially Inseminated (or Instrumentally Inseminated, depending on your lineage) queen, taking the most desirable virgin queens and inseminating her with genetics from your most desirable drone stock. Typically these are not tested or proven (as AI queens don't lay as long as open mated queens), and come with some decent price tags, depending on the genetics, skill of the breeder, and quality of the product. Usually several hundred to a thousand.

    Lastly, to some, at least that I've heard of, a breeder queen is an AI/II queen that has been proven and tested. These are your money queens, as Dwight Schrute would say. Big bucks here. I've never seen anyone market or sell these.

    Generally breeder queens are sold "as is." No warranty that they will either be accepted into the new hive, or that they'll be great breeder material (as that term is very subjective anyway). If you have a long standing relationship with a breeder, that may change, but it isn't the norm. [/QUOTE
    I had a dicussion with mike on garantees from a queen seller and he started a thread and the first answer was from you (and a very imformative answer).

    You are usually buying a queen with some expectation of what you will get from buying it, expected binnifit.

    I used your answer here to show him that even the real expensive queens were tested in the queen makers yard and not the yard that was buying it. So you had something of a track record to look at to make your mind up on what you might be buying but that the only expectation you would get from that queen would be what it had already did in a differrent yard, not what it would do in yours.

    I am not saying you were saying garantee although you say if it doesn't perform for you that there is am implied warrenty.

    When you hold your product out with a very particular name or to perform a particular action, it's an implied warranty that the product will perform according to that particular action. If it can't, don't hold it out that way.
    warrentee and garantee are the same thing where as the others (by your post) are saying our bees do this and here is the test to prove it. They are not giving a garantee even if thier test results imply one to you.

    bee weaver can say that thier treatment free bees will do that cause they have proof in thier yard and even some on here that are treatment free that have thier queens and that they could point to. The proof is in the doing. Now will it work for everybody. Probly about as good as just keeping bees works for everybody. I bought bees from a guy that has had bees for twenty years and does not treat. Now success might be for him a fourty percent loss of hives but for your a 10 percent loss of hives. You will all lose hive though. However if he is happy enough with 40 percent loss and feels he is getting enough, then it is success.

    If he know he is not lying and is not treating and has kept bees for twenty years then I can have treatment free bees if I am also happy with that.

    You are right in that it is the buyers expectation that decides on if the queen did what it was said to do. From the sellers point as long as he is not sneaking treatments, he knows it is a treatment free bee and if two people have bought those queens from him are also treatment free, he knows it is doing what he said it would do. For those that lose hives, the seller loses hives too but he has some live also.

    In the end it will always be buyer beware.

    Since the standard is treating and what is special is treatment free then is their an implied warrentee that if you treat, your bees will always live?

    I am starting to be convinced that there is something transferable to differrent areas by using bees that are kept treatment free. If mites are everywhere and mites breed the same everywhere then a hive that is keeping the mites down to 1 percent would have to have at least the chance to do that everywhere. Now that does not mean things can't happen. AFB is not everywhere but where it is, it is bad. So even moving in a good queen or two to someplace else may take a bit for things to even out but to say they don't have the trait or ability to work might not be the whole picture, It might also take more then one queen and some time to work.

    If it works in one place it should eventually work in another. They are bees and they are mites.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •