Splits failing plz help - Page 2
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 77
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,260

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Make sure you still have at least two full frames of bees and brood and find the queen. If you are going to be moving them, shake in some foragers as well. Get the nucs setup in the evening and closed off with screen. Transport them in the predawn and release around 7am. Stick around to watch them orient to the new location, it's cool to watch. I imagine the bees will be pretty traumatized by the end of all this so it may take the queen a while to start laying. Bees may also blame her for the ruckus and that won't be good. I would leave a robber screen on or your entrance reducer and feed at this point but don't worry if they run out. If you have foragers and some stores, they should be ok. My nucs were taking a pint every two days but were starting to get nectar bound so I stopped. There is plenty coming in so I am not worried.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Jwp. If I move them to the other house, I can't keep an eye on them. Do you think it is worth it? If so, I need to move them tonight. I start work at 7am.

    Also, I noticed a few trying to fly off with larve. Is that normal and due to being moved around?

    The Queen's are still in their boxes, but will be out very soon.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,260

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    You say you can't keep an eye on them. Once a week visitation? The larva thing depends, they could be larvae that were killed by being uncapped during the robbing and the bees are doing some housekeeping. Or it could mean they are getting ready to abscond, or ?
    Sounds like you really are running out of good options. Shake an extra frame of bees in the box and staple some window screen over the hole. Take em to the parent's house (let Mom and Dad know) uncork them and hope for the best. You will need to get by and make sure the queens have been released after a few days. You can evaluate other options once things have stabilized. If they don't make it, consider what went wrong and plan ahead for the next time.

    Makeshift robber screen, nothing more than some bent hardware cloth.
    20171001_164214.jpg
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    We decided to hedge out bet. One will stay here and the other at my parents house. I'll try to check on them tomorrow after work. For now, I decided to put a feeder on via the inner cover. They live near national seashore so the bees should find food. I wish I had been able to keep them from robbing. There is plenty to forage. I need to find a successful way to do my own splits in my yard.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,260

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    I need to find a successful way to do my own splits in my yard.
    That has been my dilemma as well, before I was given permission to have my bees at work 30 miles away. Out of five attempts at splits in the home yard, only two were successful. One of those had a robber screen from day one. The other was a strong split while the flow was still on and didn't get robbed. The other three were total failures, although one managed to hang on for about a month. The experienced beeks are right, the best splits must be moved. Diminished robbing attempts and a stronger nuc because all the guard bees and foragers are still in it. I still use the screens with my nucs that are at work because that location has been good to me with swarm trapping as well. So there are other bees in the vicinity.
    This a picture of one of the three screens I made this evening. Once again copied from the Brushy Mountain screens I purchased earlier.

    20171001_185409.jpg20171001_185422.jpg

    As you can see, they are very simple and reasonably effective.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    How do they help?
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,260

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Robbers are attracted to the smell of the honey/feed. The smell emanates from the opening so that is where they go to try to get in. The screen allows the smell to come out, but blocks the direct access. The bees that live in the nuc figure out pretty quickly how to get in and out, but the robbers don't. Or at least not the majority of them. Notice the entrance on the top bar of the screen. Very easy to guard if one of the robbers does figure it out.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yuba County, California, USA
    Posts
    6,528

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    ... I'm thinking about putting out two comb frames that still have honey residue from being spun out. Do you think that will distract them from the nucs? ...
    I never ever put anything in the yard that bees want to rob when I have just made splits or any weaker hives in the yard. That causes robbing.

    I never put a feeder of any kind on the newly made splits, that causes robbing. I always make splits up with a frame of honey and a frame of some pollen so they do not have to be fed. Sugar water and especially with anything else mixed in like EO's or vinegar will cause robbing, Make the splits up with stores frames from the parent hive, and feed the parent hive if needed, don't feed the splits.
    Live real time bee chat, most evenings...
    https://www.rumbletalk.com/client/chat.php?4%40HY_hmJ

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    3,931

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Jade
    I have made all my splits (not many) and hived all my swarms in the same yard and some right beside each other. Ray has helped me lots of times with sage advice and I trust him. I have fed splits in my yard but timeing is important. It is a lot easier to get away with feeding something that has few foragers when their is a real strong flow on keeping the other bees busy. I would hate to do a split now cause even my strongest hives are being tested for weakness due to no natural forage being around right now. Michael bush has some good ideals on his web site for making differrent kinds of splits.

    I also try and never have anything but sugar mixed with water (nothing that smells added).

    I think but I am new that big splits work better then small ones in the same yard. I could move to other places with my splits but am too lazy to do so and so have just been winging it. I do know from experiance though that you do not have to have more then one hive in a yard and can still do things that will kill you with bees you did not even know were around untill you tried to open feed close to your hive and invited all the neibors bee to come rob you. Even if you move the hive, you have to be careful of what you do.

    I think the biggest help for a new guy is to do splits when there is a good flow on. I know lots of guys make late splits and do just fine but for guys like us that are just starting, making the split when in a good flow is safest till we get a feel for it.

    Remember that I am as new as you when I am spouting all this stuff to you.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Gww and Ray I appreciate the suggestions. I live on the northern Gulf Coast, a short bike ride to water. Wildflowers have been in flow and goldenrod is just starting. Our fall flow is on. I think Ray may be onto something. One of the frames I put it was recently extracted comb. I didn't even think about it being a trigger.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Weston, ME
    Posts
    1,016

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    I have heard some recommend that you shouldn't feed a split for at least a day to let the foragers return to the original hive.
    Forage bees (which get tossed into the new split with the other bees) return to their original hive, and so the new weak split's location is known (along with stores/syrup sources).

    Mr. Bush suggests leaving the split in the location of the original hive so the foragers are coming to the new split rather than from the split to the original hive.

    Even if you make a successful split with no initial robbing - and then set out food, you are liable to cause the split to get robbed. Putting wet frames out is basically open feeding which can trigger robbing. Robbing bees go everywhere looking for easy food - and so can easily find a new weak split.

    Here is a case in which a suggestion to move the nuc was given early but action was not prompt enough.
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-Very-Confused

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Here is a method that I've used in the last 3 years for very late splits with excellent result.
    Find a very strong hive for this process. Moved all except 1 or 2 frames of attaching bees to the new hive location without the queen. The queen is still in the original location after the frames got moved. Add the drawn comb to fill in the empty slots in the original hive. In the mean time, all the foragers from the split hive and the original hive are returning to the old location. They are happy to see the queen is still there. The split hive will not be happy and are very edgy because their queen is missing. Some flying bees will try to find their queen and will try to orient to the new split hive location but they all return to the original hive no matter what. Now the split hive is without much foragers. That is why it is so important to make up stronger split hive by taking almost all the frames of bees from a very strong hive over. Depleting the foragers will not even put a dent to the hive population since lots of bees are still in the new split hive. This is the key to your split success!

    Now, after everything has settled down in a day or 2, go in the original hive to find the old queen. Catch her and take her over to the split hive to release her inside. Simply put her next on a frame gap and she will go inside. This process serve 2 purposes, one is to preserve the split hive's queen right status. Secondly is to prepare the original hive in a queen less state for the new mated queen to go in. My 2 new queens are schedule to arrive either this Tues or Weds. Already prepared 2 nuc hives using this method for them today and yesterday. Have also made a double tied together frames, one empty and one of drawn comb for the queen introduction cage. She can stay in there for as long as she like to lay and be friends with the older foragers.

    Gww, pointed out about Lauri's fly back method on the other post. But Lauri did not go back to fully details her finding. Just the same time that Lauri discovered this method and gave it a name, I also found it but did not have a name for it. However, the method and it principles are still the same, the fly back bees, only I used it differently with different result.
    Surprisingly, the split hive is just next to the original hive I made!

    p.S. Give it a little twist and screened off one of the split nuc hive at the original location tonight. Let's see how the foragers react when they cannot get inside coming from the split queen right hive. I'm sure some foragers are still left behind.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Thank you both for the detailed information. I really need this to work, but if it doesn't, I at least think I know what to do different next time.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Of course it works. Been doing this for 4 seasons now. Both the Spring time split and very late summer
    split are using the same method. I only saw 7 foragers trying to get in to the old hive location. They
    cannot get in because the window screen blocked them out just the way I planned it. No choice but to go back to the queen right neighbor
    hive. After the new queen is laying I will take the wire screen off. By then the neighbor hive bees will smell different so they will not be accepted by the new queen hive anymore even if they try to get in. In the mean time they will have honey water, homemade patty subs and sugar bricks to munch on all securely locked in for a few days. Yes, I do provide extra ventilation in the top box on purpose with a small crack on the top migratory cover.

    New queens is schedule to arrive here tomorrow afternoon at 3pm. To prevent the foragers from going in or coming out from the locked down hive, I have to do my queen installation in the night time. So that will be 5 hours later after the sunset here.



    New method of queen intro double frames laying cage:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Beepro, please explain the two frame queen box and how you built it in more detail.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,260

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Beepro, It appears your side bars do not taper as do the BM frames I use, or it just not clear in the picture? Is the other comb side covered in screen also? I would assume it is to keep the other bees from releasing her by chewing through the comb. Do you think your two frame set up would also work as a laying queen bank? Strength in numbers. Would be cool to have the queens laying while waiting to put them in a nuc.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Yes, you can use it both as a queen laying bank cage or serve as a queen introduction cage. Its purpose is for the queen to
    lay first while taking her time to get used to her bees in the intro hive. It will work as a queen laying bank that the new
    bees will be more likely to accept a laying queen. You can also modify it to cut the empty frame narrower. For this demo
    cage, I just use another standard empty frame attached with the drawn comb frame that I took from the hive with some nectar and pollen in the cells. Yes, it will work for both!

    Imagine how a nuc hive can be stabilized first without seeing the robbing situation while you feed them inside with a safe caged laying queen. After that she can be released manually when there is sufficient food. There is no need to be in a hurry to release her while she's laying away. We all know that a banked queen coming from the seller, if they do queen banking, will take 4-5 days for her to start laying. Inside this safety cage she can take her time without worrying about the older bees or any robbing situation. If there is robbing then she is safe along with her attendants and young nurse bees inside this cage.

    As an intro cage I can leave her in with the attendants and 30 fuzzy newly emerged bees from the nuc hive. Don't give them the older bees with the queen that they might balled her to death. The big fat plump up young nurse bees are the ones I'm looking for to add inside the cage along with the queen. To be safe for an expensive queen these days I will just use the newly emerged fuzzy bees with her. This way all the attendants that came along with her will have a chance to live too. They will be one big happy family in no time after the queen is laying.

    As a short term laying bank queen cage, she can lay inside while waiting for her time to go inside a nuc or production hive. Again use the same young bees from the hive that she's going into. For a long term laying bank queen cage, I would modify with an empty narrow frame next to the comb frame. The reason is you want 5 sets to fit inside a 10 frame hive box. Make 2 of the 10 frame hive box and you will have 10 laying queens banked and laying.

    If you use a piece of QE cut to fit in the middle between the 2 drawn comb frames then you will have a 2 queens laying bank frame on either side. Though the frame has to be modify a bit. You can even ship the entire 2 queens along with the drawn comb frames on both sides to the buyer too. At the eggs stage they are really tough and glue to the bottom of the cells.

    If you have a strong hive in a long langs hive set up then you can bank more than 10 queens using this method. You can also double up on the long langs hive too. The limitation is how many worker bees you have inside. A good example for this would be to use a hive ready to swarm for a bank queen set up like this with the old queen removed first. Good for making a lot of the II Spring queens. Anyway, the purpose is to get the queen laying while she wait for the new bees to get used to her.
    Last edited by beepro; 10-03-2017 at 04:50 AM.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,260

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    Something to try this spring. Thanks for the detailed post.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Splits failing plz help

    "..., or it just not clear in the picture? Is the other comb side covered in screen also?"

    Yes, both side has a screen on it. The back side of the empty frame, I simple nailed some small nails to
    attach the wire window screen along the perimeter of the frame. On the bottom bar of the empty frame, I use a thicker fishing line to secure it to the screen along the bottom. The front removable screen on the drawn comb side is where I use rubber bands and 2 pieces of long strings to attached the 2 frames together. So the back screen on the empty frame is not removable but the screen on the drawn comb can be remove. In between the middle of the empty frame and the drawn comb is where the bees and queen will go in.

    If you pay attention to the side bars, the empty frame does not use the standard side bars on either side. For the side bars of the empty frame, I use the narrow rectangular side bars. The dimension is the same as the regular langs side bar only it doesn't narrow in on the end toward the bottom. The bottom bar which attached to the side bars with nails, is a piece of 1/4" thin wood strip the same dimension as the side bars. This way both the side bars and the bottom bar will fit together with small nails. The top bar is just a standard langs top bar. Attaching the top bar to the side bars is also using small nails.

    But for the queen's safety I cut out a small strip of the white chewy foam to fit in the small gap so that the bees cannot get inside. The side gap is already narrow enough on both sides that no bees can get in or out. This narrow gap is caused by the empty frame using the rectangular side bars fit together with the drawn comb frame. If I want more safety then I will use the aluminum tape to tape over the chewy foam like I did on the top bars of the frame. The rubber bands and 2 pieces of strings are there to further secure the foam pieces on the frames together. Overall, it is a very secure tight fit.

    * Note: The drawn comb frame is a standard langs frame with the narrower side bars cut in. Combine the 2 together and you will have a smaller gap on the side. Been thinking about this design for a while before assembly. This will save on the material cost if you want to make many of them.

    ** Note: If you don't have the chewy white foam then any chewy foam will work as long as they are safe for the bees. Use substitute local materials to seal these gaps along the frames. Materials such as wax soaked paper towels twisted together or smaller pieces of wire screens, harden propolis, etc. Whatever that is bee proof. If you don't care much about material cost then use a piece of aluminum tape to tape all the way around the 2 frames. A small razor blade can be use to cut along the middle to release the drawn comb frame later on.

    Taping the top bars together. After the frames are tied together with rubber bands and strings, the top bars still has a big gap in the middle of the 2 frames. To seal this gap, again I use a wider piece of the chewy white foam. Then use aluminum tapes to tape over the chewy foam. Cut the foam wider so that the bees cannot push it inside the frame. The aluminum tapes are there to further secured the foam making it very snug and secure. I use 6 pieces of the thicker rubber bands and 2 pieces of strings to tie the 2 frames together. The 2 pieces of the thicker rubber bands are on the outer side of the frames for better strength. The rest are in the middle and in between of the frames space out enough to secure the screen on. The 2 pieces of strings are on the side-way along with one piece of rubber band. All these security measure is to make sure that the screen on the drawn comb is on securely and no gaps for the outside bees to go inside these frames.

    For the bottom bar gap, I also use aluminum tapes and a piece of chewy white foam all the way across. After that put the rubber bands on top of them. Make a final inspection all around and tug on the foams and screens to make sure they are tight enough. Any small opening you can tape it over or use a piece of chewy foam to seal the small hole. Before, I only use a single drawn comb cage for queen intro. Now a double frames intro frame is better because I don't have to worry about squishing the queen against the screen anymore. The queen and attendants will go on the side where the empty and drawn comb meet. The back side of the drawn comb is only 30% usable empty cells because the screen is very close on it. I like to put the 2 frames next to the hive box with the back of the drawn comb facing the hive wall. Hope my description is clear enough. If not perhaps some pics might help.



    Back, bottom, side and top:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by beepro; 10-03-2017 at 05:37 AM.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Happy news! The queen has been accepted and is loose in the nuc at my house. There are several frames of bees still in there. I don't see any flying, but the feeder is still there. Single bee size opening with Vicks glob above it. I'm looking forward to checking the nuc I moved. Thank you everyone! You saved them and have taught me a lot that I can use in the spring.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •