Are Neonic Really The Problem?
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  1. #1
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    May 2006
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    Default Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Are neonicotinoids truly a problem for the honey bee? Are we fighting Big pharma or are we just looking to place the blame on someones shoulders other than ourselves?


    The largest EVER field study does nothing but bring conflicting views and controversy.


    What is your opinion?


    https://tinyurl.com/y7yyyfcq
    Scott Derrick- Creator Of - Honey-B-Gone Swarm Commander

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    My opinion? As a commercial beekeeping veteran who keeps thousands of hives in "neonic country", systemic seed treatments are the least of your beekeeping worries. Concentrate on good beekeeping management and don't worry about the special interest groups picking and choosing through the latest round of statistics for proof of their point of view. Accept the basic premise that bees are insects, insecticides kill insects, insects destroy crops and farmers won't let their crops be destroyed. From a beekeeping perspective things were far worse prior to seed treatments which target insects feeding on the plant itself when accepted practice in the past was to foliar spray fields which resulted in the death of most every insect (along with a few birds and small animals) both good and bad that came in contact with the spray.
    Last edited by jim lyon; 07-12-2017 at 07:09 AM. Reason: typo
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #3
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    Dec 2015
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    Springersville,indiana
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by rsderrick View Post
    Are neonicotinoids truly a problem for the honey bee? Are we fighting Big pharma or are we just looking to place the blame on someones shoulders other than ourselves?


    The largest EVER field study does nothing but bring conflicting views and controversy.


    What is your opinion?


    https://tinyurl.com/y7yyyfcq
    After 54 years of keeping bees, my position is the main problem we have in beekeeping today is "MITES". At present my best yards are in the midst of high production monoculture farming. The problem that I face is that my main production of honey is exactly when I should be applying mite treatments. My best production hives are hit year after year because they are the most productive. Where I'm located the feral hives are thick. My best hives rob them out in mid August after I have mite counts down low. The next thing I know the hives are hit hard and perish come January. The farmers that I deal with are very worried about my bees. They ask all the time if any of their spraying is hurting my bees. So far I haven't had kill offs like I experienced back in the 70's. I listen at bee meetings. I read and learn from the Beesource forums. I read the magazines. I still have things to learn. The MITES create more problems for me than every thing else going.

  4. #4
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    Aug 2005
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    Washington County, Maine
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Off label pesticide use by all (including beekeepers) is my biggest worry. I think the neonics are fairly narrowly targeted, and don't present much issue for Honey bees, when applied appropriately. Older pesticides were as you know much more broadly targeted and lots of things, including Honey bees were killed outright. The reported sublethal effects do concern me - though I wonder about the difference between being killed out right versus experiencing the unintended consequences of sub-lethal exposure. The planter dust issue should have been solved long ago.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Jim - I agree, there is less drift with a seed coating than a spray. That is good, I am skeptical that it is harmless. From ISCIRA, it appears our bees do collect corn pollen. Has anyone honest and trustworth studied feeding corn pollen from treated seed?

    I actually see mites as a non issue, they can be controlled.

    I see refusal to follow the label as being 98 percent of the problem. I questioned a spray rig operator and he told me it was OK to spray Warrior(lambda-cyhalothrin) on flowering soybeans. The label clearly states otherwise.

    Another company I spoke to heard me tell how every other year all of the hives where lost, and calmly replied that the spray soybeans on the odd years.

    Crazy Roland

  6. #6
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    Jan 2015
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    Richmond, VA
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    CCD shows up in countries within a year or two of varroa showing up, and seems to stop about 10 years later. Its the mites and the viruses they carry. It has no relation to neonics.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Jim - I agree, there is less drift with a seed coating than a spray. That is good, I am skeptical that it is harmless. From ISCIRA, it appears our bees do collect corn pollen. Has anyone honest and trustworth studied feeding corn pollen from treated seed?
    Didn't say they were harmless, they are insecticides and will most certainly kill bees if they come into direct contact. No doubt bees will occasionally gather corn pollen though I routinely check corn fields near hives and its an event if you spot one. Any kind of study would first have to ascertain IF there are any remaining traces of insecticide in the pollen and then next try to quantify the amount of stored pollen (if any) in the hive that came from corn. The closest thing I know thats been done in this regard was this broad based study showing the most widely used neonics being detected in 1 to 2% of the samples at the ridiculously low LOD of 1ppb. Another such study done a couple of years earlier showed similar numbers.
    https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/u...HBS-Report.pdf
    No doubt there are localized spray related bee kills regularly throughout the US, I just experienced a pretty bad one myself on the almonds but I think a clear headed read of this report would tell you that the biggest widespread threat to bee health are most likely beekeeper applied pesticides and mite vectored bee viruses. Pick your poison.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #8
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    Feb 2015
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    Mercer county pa. Usa
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Clearly there are people who want to fight the chemical companies and nothing they ever produce will ever be acceptable. The studies on neonics, like a lot of studies seem to have predictable results based on who is paying for or doing the study. The concern to me is what is the alternative. People are going to protect there crops from pests, and sorry but the green organic alternatives just don't work good enough or are too expensive. Neonics probably cause problems for bees but, it seems to be better then the alternatives.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    I only have small patches of non-neonic corn in my garden but every year for a week or two the bees will hit it hard enough that it is intimidating to stand near it. It usually gets its pollen when we are in a derth of sorts or at least not a heavy flow. I have to believe if the fields of corn are what is around that the bees hit it pretty hard. This is not a position one way or the other on neonics which I don't know enough about to have an opinion but more just an observation at my house.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    I only have small patches of non-neonic corn in my garden but every year for a week or two the bees will hit it hard enough that it is intimidating to stand near it. It usually gets its pollen when we are in a derth of sorts or at least not a heavy flow. I have to believe if the fields of corn are what is around that the bees hit it pretty hard.
    Yes, you are quite right, garden variety sweet corn is quite attractive to bees. Hybrid field corn is entirely different from a bee attraction standpoint. Don't know why, my guess is that the breeding criteria that selects for things like drought resistance, high yield and standibility may work at cross purposes with a plant that also produces high quality bee attractive pollen which is something the grower could care less about. But thats just my guess.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Are Neonic Really The Problem?

    Jim loyn
    Yes, you are quite right, garden variety sweet corn is quite attractive to bees. Hybrid field corn is entirely different from a bee attraction standpoint. Don't know why, my guess is that the breeding criteria that selects for things like drought resistance, high yield and standibility may work at cross purposes with a plant that also produces high quality bee attractive pollen which is something the grower could care less about. But thats just my guess.
    I could check it out this year. For the first time in about 15 years they planted corn in dads fields. I won't check it out though cause I have not put any bees out there yet.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

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