Chalk brood
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Chalk brood

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yuba County, California, USA
    Posts
    6,533

    Default Chalk brood

    In the "Today in the Apiary" forum, soarwitheagles asks...
    Please describe chalk brood and what it looks like Ray and, if possible, can you describe any actions that can stop or minimize it?
    Chalk brood looks like dried out, hard, mummified larva, white in color. Sometimes it has black too, in the late winter and early spring when moisture in the hive is high so has some mould or fungus blackness mixed in with the white, or on the surface of the white. It looks like small pieces of chalk, hence the name. It can be seen in the cells in the brood nest area, and on the front entrance board where bees will drop it as they are cleaning it out of cells, or on the ground in front of the hive.

    It shows it's ugly head in cold wet weather, like late winter and early spring here in my area. This sets it off, but it is carried genetically in the family line of the bees. The cure is warmer dry weather, keeping good ventilation in the hive, and re-queening with genetics that are resistant to the disease. I like to cause a week or two of broodlessness as I re-queen, to help it get cleaned up out of the combs for the new queen to take over. I do this by pinching the queen, coming back a week to 9 days later to pinch off all queen cells made, then giving a good queen cell or introducing a mate queen.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    "Great Green Way", Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    394

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    ... if it helps I attach a pic of recent finds in one of my nucs.

    It is early days to say for sure but adding some about to hatch brood and relocating the colony to a site less shaded seems to allowing the colony to recover.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/2djqc0z.jpg


    Cheers.

    Bill
    Last edited by eltalia; 07-04-2017 at 10:14 PM. Reason: typo edit

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    I say it is 99% genetics related. In a hive with high mite load this will lower
    the number of mites significantly. To get rid of this issue I would choose queens with
    better resistance and hygienic behaviors. The hygienic bees will carry out the mummified larvae before
    the disease spread further to other nearby hives. I like requeening better!
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,073

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    Chalk brood looks like dried out, hard, mummified larva, white in color. Sometimes it has black too, in the late winter and early spring when moisture in the hive is high so has some mould or fungus blackness mixed in with the white, or on the surface of the white.
    The white mummies are chalk in the vegetative stage, while the black mummies have chalk in the reproductive stage. Best way to get rid of chalk is to requeen with a queen raised from breeders that have been selected for high level of the hygienic trait.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yuba County, California, USA
    Posts
    6,533

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    The white mummies are chalk in the vegetative stage, while the black mummies have chalk in the reproductive stage. Best way to get rid of chalk is to requeen with a queen raised from breeders that have been selected for high level of the hygienic trait.
    Thank you Michael for correcting my lack of knowledge in this area. I did not know the difference in the white and black chalk or what caused those differences. Thanks for the correct information!

  7. #6

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    The white mummies are chalk in the vegetative stage, while the black mummies have chalk in the reproductive stage. Best way to get rid of chalk is to requeen with a queen raised from breeders that have been selected for high level of the hygienic trait.
    Also thanks.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    "Great Green Way", Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    394

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    The white mummies are chalk in the vegetative stage, while the black mummies have chalk in the reproductive stage.
    Add my appreciation of those clarifications, Michael.
    Best way to get rid of chalk is to requeen with a queen raised from breeders that have been selected for high level of the hygienic trait.
    Might I ask further expansion for that statement?
    Interested as my intro post explains:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...usiast-landing

    ... and recent email activity between myself and my prime supplier of queens, email stemming from that info I first read on CB.
    He may well be miffed I was insinuating his last delivery was of poor genetics after I asked him about CB in one colony his queens were put to.

    So, is there evidence to underpin hygiene is a genetic element or is it really a feature of queens that easily/quickly produce strong colonies?
    Or is it simply my stuffup in monitoring colony environs?

    Cheers.

    Bill

  9. #8
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,453

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    From what MP has said in the past, the resistant colonies are simply hygienic enough to remove mummies/infected brood before they can re-infect. I don't know if there's a genetic trait that is actually resistant to chalk but maybe more experts can chime in on the subject. Some have posted the pathogen may be more endemic to the area as well or certain things can house it, I think one member posted he had some potting soil tested that was next to his hives and it was loaded with spores and was the likely culprit.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,073

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Yes, there is strong evidence that hug. Can be selected for. I also feel that there is a difference between hygienic and resistant. Hygienic can leave a spotty pattern, while resistant won't.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    "Great Green Way", Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    394

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    **
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Yes, there is strong evidence that
    (edit)
    hygiene can
    (edit)
    be selected for. I also feel that there is a difference between hygienic and resistant. Hygienic can leave a spotty pattern, while resistant won't.
    .... and immunity,, just to confuse any reader further, Michael.

    Thanks for coming back on this, I was looking for some specific reference having read the page/s linked to:
    https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/animal-in...sts/chalkbrood
    ... on first discovering CB in one of my nursed nucs. My read of the advice supplied did not link "resistant colony" to "resistant queen", then.
    Reading it again now I note advice uses both resistant and hygenic very loosely in relation to queens. It is more like it is implied an active colony in top order will produce resistant/hygenic queens.
    Muddled, to say the least.
    BTW... My supplier is named within those pages.

    So, in the spirit of "do it yourself" I went looking, and found the paper linked to below. I was surprised to see those findings, particularly in light of the conclusion around flows. I was most pleased to read the depth of private sector reseach being carried out today, something I and others fought for "back in the day", with little impact.

    http://honeybee.org.au/wp-content/up...015-Update.pdf

    Cheers.


    Bill
    Last edited by eltalia; 07-06-2017 at 09:59 PM. Reason: typo (?)

  12. #11

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    On average, colonies selectively
    bred for hygienic behaviour are more hygienic
    than non-selected queens when not on a
    nectar flow. This is extremely important to
    consider because it is in the times of dearth
    (no nectar flow) that bees’ immune systems
    are more taxed leaving them more susceptible to
    succumb to disease.
    Very interesting, Bill.
    I would like to know if the behavior could be promoted by leaving honey stores in the hive always and taking only surplus.
    Well, I will see with my own studies if I have less failures with leaving honey.

    One year observation is very short a time. Most scientific research is done too short a time IMO.

    This kind of research is done by the toleranzzucht ag for some time now in germany. Still they have not the success they want, as was posted in our bee magazine. Genetic bottlenecks seem to prevent much success in the long run.
    http://www.toleranzzucht.de

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    "Great Green Way", Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    394

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Very interesting, Bill.
    I would like to know if the behavior could be promoted by leaving honey stores in the hive always and taking only surplus.
    Leads one to thinks so, for sure.
    I am also wondering if it only the behavior of bees on a flow, like we know their lives are shorter but is no flow with high reserves going to result in more hygenic 'lazy' longer lived bees.
    Food for thought :-)

    Well, I will see with my own studies if I have less failures with leaving honey.
    Ditto.
    One year observation is very short a time. Most scientific research is done too short a time IMO.
    Agreed.
    Yet this one is private sector. Like you mention this work should be G'mnt funded, we have had huuuuuuGE cutbacks on our G'mnt researchers - CSIRO

    Cheers.

    Bill

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    You are thinking that the environment that the bees in contributed to this disease. My local apiary is like a
    big experimental station. Anything I can think of bees related I will design a little experiment to find out the who and
    what if of it. It as much to do with the bee's hygienic behaviors. The lazy bees or not so hygienic bees will not carry out
    the dead bees or infected larvae causing it to spread to the comb or other nearby hives too. I say good! After the mites are
    dead I can requeen with a better hygienic bees. Every time you requeen with better bees this disease will disappear fast. For the mites maybe this is nature's way of getting rid of them. Only choose the hives to make daughter queens from without this disease issue. Oh, saving the honey there will not help either. It was the bees that have this issue of not being too hygienic than the neighbor hives. So it is both an environmental issue and the bee's issue at the same time.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  15. #14
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Knox, Pa. USA
    Posts
    5,400

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    ... and recent email activity between myself and my prime supplier of queens, email stemming from that info I first read on CB.
    He may well be miffed I was insinuating his last delivery was of poor genetics after I asked him about CB in one colony his queens were put to.
    Just out of curiosity would it not be more practical to just raise your own queen. With only 5 hives One would think an on the spot method would work well for you. Certainly someone who has been a commercial beekeeper with 250 hives would have a good understanding of queen rearing toward quality ends, and be able to contribute greatly toward the development of enhanced of hygienic and resistive lines. A win win for all!

  16. #15
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Knox, Pa. USA
    Posts
    5,400

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    "of mice and men"?


    IME... forum stalkers typically misread and/or misrepresent their target's musings. I can only suggest you slowly digest my postings, clearly you have missed critical background on me.
    ...nothing new here, we move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    Thanks, and sorry my message was not clear I *was* a migratory apiarist.
    Today I have a few viable Apis colonies (nucs) on our home block and a couple of Langs (4deep) of Italians out in the scrub/bush. Bill
    Sounds like about 5 to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    Other than developing this thread for topic - as per my expressed interest in BS.com participation - there exists not a skerrick of selfinterest in this (topic) for myself.
    Why? is not all Knowledge valuable? How else will one become well rounded!


    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    Exactly why it is a QB offsite is employed.
    Yet yourself and others find that 'foolish' ... or so I am gathering, from your 'curiousity'.
    Well, even in the 60 when you were a commercial bee keeper with 250 hives. Lets take 1965 queens were selling for around $8.00 Double that AU. 250 queens at $8.00 each = $2000.00 In 1965 a brand new ford mustang ran 1800.00 and a ford f100 was less. It just seems prudent to invest the time to graft ones own queens. The time invested would pay big dividends. Today, With On the Spot rearing being so simple It would seem a better option than buying queens from someone you suspect of harboring chalk brood for just a hand full of hives.

    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    Again, _read_ the study linked to.
    Set to scale the two apiaries geometrics and exposure in time and funds.
    Then go read _again_(closely) /SiWolke/ and mine comments.
    Leaving out all the asterisk, dashes, forward slashes underscores, and abbreviations might make that easier for all!

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Dickson TN
    Posts
    1,943

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Two strike rule ha good luck with that. Try objectively reading tenbears reply not off topic and it does bring up a valid point. It's always a good thing to learn how to raise queens learning how to do so will teach a person a lot about beekeeping. Have never had chalk brood in my apiary or any of my out yards but have seen it in hives with purchased queens and hives with queens raised from purchased queens. It's not solely the purchased queens but a number of things that allow chalk brood to rear it's ugly head that contributes. Raising queens from a known stock helps stack the deck in a beekeepers favor purchased queens are almost ( emphasis on almost ) always a gamble.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Dickson TN
    Posts
    1,943

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by eltalia View Post
    ... then _why_ are you posting into the thread?
    Clearly your own words disallow any value on a management topic.


    Compliments.


    Bill
    Reread my reply again objectively and maybe just maybe it will dawn on you but I sincerely doubt it. Why am I posting because we have what's known as free speech in my country. You are entitled to your opinion but also I'm entitled to mine. You are a Beesource member not a moderator. Learn how to use the ignore button then you won't have to read anything that disagrees with you.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    12,001

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    I recently went through several threads that have produced some posts raising issues with the tone of some messages posted. I have edited/deleted some, sent warnings to a couple of member's particular messages, and have had private conversation with some. At this point, we draw a line in the sand and get back to the topics of discussion. No need to bring up old posts for discussion. Let's all let the GPS re-calibrate. If anyone notices posted remarks that are not inline with the forum rules, simply contact one of the moderators or myself in private.
    Regards, Barry

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    5,535

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    I say it is 99% genetics related.
    I completely agree with this assumption. Not based on scientific studies, but on casual observation in my own yards.

    I've had colonies develop severe cases of chalkbrood and it's very easy to assess the impact when inspecting what is found piling up on the sticky board in hives with screened bottom boards. For me it's always been isolated instances, maybe one colony in a yard with 6 or 8 hives.

    If it was strictly an environmental issue then I would assume that "all" of the hives in the yard would be struggling with similar issues. But they don't, it seems to be restricted to only a hive or two in the group. I'll pinch the queen, come back later and cut out all the queen cells, then slip in a frame with eggs from one of the other productive hives in the yard. Within weeks the chalkbrood clears up. Requeening with a mated queen might be a better idea, but if I have a colony with a positive track record in the yard, those are the genetics I want to propagate.
    To everything there is a season....

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Chalk brood

    Same here with my queen issue. Only one show out of 6 hives. What I did was a bit drastic afterward that is
    to requeen them all with better genetics. Put one nuc hive on the open field for further experiment to see if it is
    environmental issue or genetic related. I took every opportunity to further learn about the bees.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •